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MattJMM2
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Finally had a great work out... Been lagging a bit for the past few days. Think I was having brush with overtraining/overreaching. I cut down the volume of my accessory work for about a week, and I've seemed to recover.

Dynamic Squat Day:

Box Squat: 230 8x2, 345x1
Power Cleans: 175 3x3
4" Deficit Speed DL: 235 5x1
Single Leg RDL w/ 30#dbs 3x8
Abs Superset: Cable Crunchs 3x10 + Standing ab roll outs 3x5

10/23/2011 11:35:28 AM

GKMatt
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serious question... what makes it a dynamic squat day as opposed to a regular squat day?

10/23/2011 5:31:42 PM

MattJMM2
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Because I use 60% of my max for speed. Keep reps low (2), and about 1minute rest breaks.

The idea is to create max force production through the generation of more power.

Force = mass x acceleration.... Lower mass, but MUCH faster acceleration.

The idea is that you work on your nervous system and fast twitch fibers with this style of training so that you can move heavier loads when you do max effort work.

10/23/2011 6:39:56 PM

GKMatt
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so you lower the weight and do the reps faster?

10/23/2011 6:56:15 PM

MattJMM2
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Yep. You can't move heavy weights fast, as a function of how heavy it is.

It's all about maximum power, aka Force/Time.

The theory is that around 45-65% of your 1 rep max, you can create maximal power by moving a submaximal weight very fast.

10/23/2011 7:51:56 PM

GKMatt
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i see, i incorporate those techniques already, but not to the extent that you do. do you find a lot of success in increasing your core lifts with that method?

10/23/2011 8:32:40 PM

MattJMM2
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Well, I've increased my back squat from 335 to 380 and my DL from 435 to 465 over the past 4 or 5 months.

I consider this decent progress since I am floating around 170lbs body weight.

The program I am on is pretty fun. It allows me to go maximal on a variety of lifts and doesn't beat me up too bad.

10/23/2011 8:47:17 PM

GKMatt
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thats decent. ive been working to push from a 420 dead lift to a goal of 450 in the coming months. lately ive been adding in dimmel sets to bust a plateau

[Edited on October 23, 2011 at 8:54 PM. Reason : ]

10/23/2011 8:52:04 PM

MattJMM2
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If you haven't incorporated deficit deadlifts, I'd give those a try. They really helped me get over a few humps.

Stand on roughly a ~4" box and pull around 40-60% of your 1rm for singles or doubles for 8-10sets.

[Edited on October 23, 2011 at 10:10 PM. Reason : ;]

10/23/2011 10:09:14 PM

maximus
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no matter what lift you are doing (if you are trying to get stronger), you have to put maximal effort into the lift. that is what gets you past the sticking points.

if a lineman can bench press 400 lbs, as he pushes against a 250 lb opponent, he wants to push with 400 lbs of force. however, he will be able to move 250 lbs much faster than 400 lbs. that's the thought process behind dynamic effort days. you still have your mini-maxes but are able to compensate for them with speed by blasting through them.

if you are trying to increase your deadlift, boxsquats are nice because you have to "rest" on the box. you have to generate 45-60% 1RM from a dead position. if it takes you longer than 2 seconds to do the concentric phase, the weight is too heavy. defeceit deads are great for starting strength, and rack lockouts are great for top end. put the bar on pins somewhere mid shin to knee and pull like a dead lift. squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze your glutes and push your hips forward.

i would like to add though, that the best (IMHO) strength building exercise for dead lifts are good morning exercise. they are not as taxing on your body as squats are dead lifts, but they hit your back and hams and glutes in ways the benchmark lifts can't. we have covered this before, but you have to think about performing a dead lift as you do a good morning. concentrate on the similarities of the movements so that you are training your deadlift as you perform another exercise. in 12 weeks you can deadlift only 2 times and probably add 10-15% on your 1RM.

train to lift, don't lift to train!

10/24/2011 9:39:06 AM

Pikey
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I am going to start participating ITT as well now. Finally joined a gym. I am very weak though. For the first couple weeks I figured I would just familiarize myself with the gym equipment, but then I'd like to transition into a strength building routine like Starting Strength or something to get a good foundation of strength before working on an aesthetics routine. I started a BB.com profile to track my stats.

Here are my starting stats right now:

Age: 30
Height: 5'10"
Weight: 165lbs
Bench: 95x6
Squat: 115x6
DL: 115x6
Pullups: 4
Goal body: Wolverine mode

No diet plan as of right now. No supplements as of right now, but I would be interested in something that makes recovery quicker. I am sore as hell the next day.

10/24/2011 10:10:01 AM

GKMatt
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dont worry about the soreness, youll get to the point where you start to like that sore feeling the next day

10/24/2011 10:48:07 AM

eleusis
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if you want a big deadlift number, then stop deadlifting and focus on good morning and hyperextensions. if your gym has a reverse hyper machine, use it.

10/24/2011 11:05:02 AM

GKMatt
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i deadlift once a week and currently focus on hip flexors, back extensions, hamstrings and 500lb tire flips to up my numbers.

10/24/2011 11:17:27 AM

eleusis
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get rid of the deadlifts and the tire flips; you're not going to build a big deadlift number doing volume work. start building your workouts around good mornings, and add some variety to the good mornings. narrow stance, wide stance, legs straight, legs slightly bent at the knees, etc. On top of that, modify your squats to incorporate box squats, but box squat as deep as you can go. If you're box squatting onto a flat bench, you're not going nearly low enough. I personally like to box squat onto a stack of 4-5 aerobic steps. throw in some leg curls and hyperextensions to finish off the workout.

After about two months, go back to deadlifting and see how much you've improved.

10/24/2011 1:49:12 PM

GKMatt
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i typically train 6 days a week. deadlifts, goodmornings, back extensions (and some other things) on saturdays, cardio and tire flips on sundays. legs with front squats, box squats, hamstring curls (and other things on tuesdays)

shoulders/upper back on mondays, chest on thursdays.

in addition to the desire to see bigger numbers on my core lifts, im also training for a half marathon thats coming up in 3 weeks and i have an indoor soccer team that i play for on wednesdays for a couple hours.

10/24/2011 2:12:24 PM

MattJMM2
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Unless you are on AAS, you are doing way too much.

10/24/2011 2:18:34 PM

Pikey
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Yeah, I couldn't do that much. I am sore as shit from a regular workout yesterday. And I have to golf in a few hours after work.

I think I will do upper and lower body on different days. Don't think I can handle it all in the same workout.

10/24/2011 2:21:50 PM

MattJMM2
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You can do a full body 3x a week, a la starting strength or bill starr 5x5, but you have to modulate your volume so you can handle it all.

That's why those programs have you going heavy with 3-4 compound lifts and that's all. Not supposed to work anything else or it will hinder your ability to recover.

10/24/2011 2:33:22 PM

GKMatt
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not on dat dere celltech but i do have the luxury of eating quite a bit and sleeping whenever i want (i work from home)

i do have a variety of supplements that i take and really my only cardio is sunday and wednesday. i train hard when i train but i dont really feel like im doing too much.

10/24/2011 2:36:31 PM

MattJMM2
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And how are your gains in strength?

10/24/2011 2:48:33 PM

GKMatt
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slow and steady. along with my bodyweight.

10/24/2011 2:50:27 PM

BobbyDigital
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so, while doing the kenpo p90x workout on saturday (which i've done a dozen times), I was the lucky recipient of a lumber strain/sprain.

even with 800mg ibuprofen 3x a day, the pain is pretty agonizing. How long am I out of commission. I was making some serious progress, and I hate to just shit it away waiting for this thing to get better.

Other than rest, anti-inflammatories, and stretching anything else I should be doing?

10/24/2011 2:52:51 PM

maximus
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good morning exercise is probably out of the question.

i dont know dude. i wouldn't mess with my back. and i wouldn't want to give you bad advice. see a doctor, i guess.

10/24/2011 3:54:20 PM

BobbyDigital
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ha, that should say lumbar, not lumber.


10/24/2011 3:55:10 PM

MattJMM2
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Anyone here use wrist wraps for benching? Not straps, wraps. I used them for the first time today, and damn the work well!

I must have weak wrists or something, because putting them on seemed to up my strength about ~10%.

Any tips for weak wrists? Wrist curls? Fat bar training? Farms walks?

[Edited on October 25, 2011 at 12:57 PM. Reason : ;]

10/25/2011 12:56:51 PM

eleusis
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where are you placing the bar? the bar needs to be as low as possible in your hand, tucked up snugly against your thumb and with the bar exiting through the base of your palm. any higher placement encourages you flop your wrists.

I hope no one in here is crazy enough to be benching with a thumbless grip.

10/25/2011 1:23:09 PM

MattJMM2
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I've always thought I had decent placement... After a run in with some shoulder problems that were cured by rotating my wrists like I was trying to bend the bar; I thought my new placement was good.

Occasionally I get a little wrist wobble, which terrifies me. For a brief moment it feels like I am about to lose the bar. This usually happens shortly after unracking, during the lowering phase to my chest.

10/25/2011 1:28:29 PM

maximus
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bending the bar (in spirit, not truth) is a sure fire way to activate wrist and upper arm muscles not normally used to bench press. dave tate recommends trying to break the bar apart to get the most out of your pressing muscles.

remember, if you are trying to put up numbers, you are rowing the bar to your chest which requires great bicep strength on the side of your arm. fat bar work is tremendous for this.

squeezing the blood out of the bar is a good method to incorporate, also.

10/25/2011 3:18:04 PM

AxlBonBach
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Started lifting again about 3 weeks ago. (4 times a week - 2 Chest/Shoulder/Tri, 2 Back/Biceps/Legs, 1 day each of hi rep/low weight, 1 day each of lo rep/hi weight)



Feels good to be back into it after about a year off after an injury.


Finally getting some muscle memory back.

[Edited on October 25, 2011 at 4:42 PM. Reason : exciting]

10/25/2011 4:40:21 PM

ssclark
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felt fucking jacked tonight... prob a mental thing, but i was able to go at it really hard. felt great.

which wrist wraps? I've fought wrist and grip problems ever since I had to have a scoped and repaired left wrist and didnt pt it properly bc i was a 17 year old that listened to his coaches saying suck it up and play through the pain.

even with proper form and straight wrists it's still painful (nothing I can't deal with, but i'd rather no pain if at all possible )

10/25/2011 9:15:15 PM

Slave Famous
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You guys even have the problem where you inadverdently swear real loud when you put up a tough lift? I've had some glares in my direction and I don't want it to become an issue.

10/25/2011 9:32:04 PM

MattJMM2
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I usually grunt out "FINISH IT"

10/26/2011 9:56:19 AM

MattJMM2
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I've got the elitefts 60cm wrist wraps. They're the lightest ones they sell, but they are still about 2ft long.

10/26/2011 10:00:59 AM

pilgrimshoes
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last night was a first for me at a gym... i'm doing my squats, and 8 girls wearing tank tops from one of the local strip clubs came into the free weight area and started doing some lunge circuits on the smith machines. i've never seen so many people's necks swivel.

also, i have kinda a bad habit where if someone's attempting huge weight, i want to check out their form/process to try and pick up some pointers. not gawking mind you, but corner of the eye watching while i'm between sets. i, someday would like to squat 2xbw, but am early on that journey. however watching bro a stop bro b while spotting him in a squat and telling him that you shouldn't squat deeper than 20 degrees above parallel or you'll hurt yourself made me sad. high bar position, but a quasi low bar movement. sometimes i guess you pick up on things not to do as often as things to do.

10/26/2011 10:04:47 AM

maximus
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Quote :
" however watching bro a stop bro b while spotting him in a squat"


i dont' give a shit what the person is going to tell me. do NOT stop someone when they are squatting. that's just begging for injury.

10/26/2011 10:34:49 AM

eleusis
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Quote :
"You guys even have the problem where you inadverdently swear real loud when you put up a tough lift?"


hell, I do that sometimes when doing cardio. Watching NC State football on the TV in front of me doesn't help matters any.

10/26/2011 10:56:36 AM

GKMatt
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iaqF1Tr38EQ

10/26/2011 2:50:15 PM

ssclark
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what in the holy fuck is wrong with me? I can very nearly squat 2xbw (im 275) after not working out seriously for almost 8 years... but i can't deadlift 285 more than twice...


what in the god damn fuck. I'm getting really frustrated with deadlifting. My upper body strength is beyond poor when compared to my lower body strength (I bench ~215). Maybe i just need to work on grip and forearm strength so i'm more comfortable latching on to the bar.


very annoyed at the gym today.

10/31/2011 6:05:56 PM

homeslice11
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A question most people I ask can't come up with an answer to: If you are interested in gaining muscle, how do you do it without gaining fat? Every site says to eat and eat and eat...but its clearly fueling your muscles and sending the excess to your stomach when you working out at night and sit on your butt all day.

If you try to eat relatively healthy, you are just lifting weights, not providing the fuel to rebuild...and essentially losing it over the next few days due to your body looking for an energy source, and eating up your muscle since the fat and carbs are low.

What's the solution to building muscle and losing fat (or not accumlating it)?

10/31/2011 6:43:25 PM

MattJMM2
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^^How deep are you squatting? If you can squat 525, and only DL 285 there is something terribly wrong with your form with either of the lifts. If I had to guess, you are probably not reaching full depth on your squat.

Full squat = Hip crease below the knee cap.

^Gaining significant amounts of muscle mass with out body fat takes a pretty long time. Eat enough to gain ~.25-.5lbs a week and focus on adding: 50-150lbs to your bench and overhead press. 100-300lbs on your squat and deadlift.

Do those things and you will gain a lot of muscle everywhere.

It's hard to do all at once, that's why most people take a bulk then cut approach.

Unfortunately the gains you are probably expecting are unrealistic unless you've got great genes and/or are on AAS.






[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 7:20 PM. Reason : ;]

10/31/2011 7:13:04 PM

ssclark
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I can break parallel squating no problem. I definitely do not ass to grass 500+ but I meet or break parallel

the problem has got to be with the deadlifts...

I know the forms I know the cues, I know what I need to be thinking and looking for in the lift... I just can't complete it. I dont know if ti's a mental problem, still subconciously trying to protect my wrist (for god knows why) but it's driving me absolutely insane.

[Edited on October 31, 2011 at 8:05 PM. Reason : .]

10/31/2011 8:03:09 PM

pilgrimshoes
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are you setting up right?

for me, once i got the setup right, the dl just flies off the ground.

http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=19833&p=182468#post182468


however, the numbers you're talking about are way out of my league (squat, not deadlift).

i do have a question about squats though. after realizing i wasn't ready yet for the advanced program i was on, i went back to a beginner lever linear program, with dropping the starting weights down, squatting for a lot more volume, and adding 5lbs per workout... (stronglifts 5x5... kinda a bastardized starr 5x5 crossed with starting strength). in week six now.

for squats, im up to doing 5x5 (almost) slightly above my pre-program tested 5RM (200lb... short weak fat guy, novice with the weights, starting with bad hips and knees checking in). low-bar squats. my form is starting to break down.

this morning, i decided it was time to stop increasing weight, and really focus on getting it right. that whole "be honest with yourself and why you're doing what you're doing" thing.

i've fallen into the age old minor "squat-morning" on the last two reps or so on working weights. so this morning, the first two sets of 5 were good. subsequent three i stopped after 4 reps, due to form breakdown on the fourth rep. getting weight too far forward, getting onto toes, etc.

i'm hitting depth (according to someone watching, and feeling a good amount of my hamstrings on my calves), don't seem to have a butt wink or lose arch, and get a good rebound out of the hole. i'm sticking after about 30% into the ascent, with hips coming up too quick it seems. These lead me to believe it's not a hamstring issue.

what I'm pretty sure i'm doing wrong is that
a.) found my elbows pointing back a few degrees too far, instead of tracking with spine angle. as a corollary i think this comes from not feeling like i'm "bending the bar" around my back with enough force with my elbows down, and seem to maybe be gripping too wide and pushing too much to get full back tightness and being comfortable with the weight on my back. i recently moved to thumbless on the squat, have have had success with it. i guess.
b.) don't think i'm getting full activation (or have a weakness with) of the glutes. knees are not bowing in, but i kinda fail at the "spread the floor" part. i dont really feel the glutes doing any work until nearly lockout.
c.) i try and drive my head back and up, it just... doesn't go. might be a lower back weakness, but deadlifts have always been naturally easy for me. which is kinda confusing as to why i think it's a posterior chain issue.
d.) might be pointing my toes too far out, but i get good alignment with knee angle and ankle flex.

would these cause this? what can i do to really pound the glutes that'll be a good accessory to the squat? i'm going to work in cable pullthroughs.

i also dont think i'm eating or sleeping enough to sustain this program. need to get better about that.

unrealated... http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Man-dies-in-struggle-with-police-at-Latham-gym-2244581.php#photo-1715008

totally read this and pictured it as mickey rourke on a rampage.


[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 10:11 AM. Reason : e]

11/1/2011 10:01:33 AM

maximus
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Quote :
"a.) found my elbows pointing back a few degrees too far, instead of tracking with spine angle. as a corollary i think this comes from not feeling like i'm "bending the bar" around my back with enough force with my elbows down, and seem to maybe be gripping too wide and pushing too much to get full back tightness and being comfortable with the weight on my back. i recently moved to thumbless on the squat, have have had success with it. i guess.
b.) don't think i'm getting full activation (or have a weakness with) of the glutes. knees are not bowing in, but i kinda fail at the "spread the floor" part. i dont really feel the glutes doing any work until nearly lockout.
c.) i try and drive my head back and up, it just... doesn't go. might be a lower back weakness, but deadlifts have always been naturally easy for me. which is kinda confusing as to why i think it's a posterior chain issue.
d.) might be pointing my toes too far out, but i get good alignment with knee angle and ankle flex.

"


before we get to the points, remember to push back first, not down. back, not down. back, not down. back, not down. sitting on the shitter, sitting on the shitter, sitting on the shitter. that's perfect squat form. if you bend your knees first (if your lifting for power) you're wrong. weight goes back. weight goes back. weight goes back.

a and c) there are four "hemispheres" you want to keep tight. your two shoulders, your lower back and your neck/head. if you can wiggle a little further under the bar, you will probably be able to get that tightness. a lot of lifting is "trying" to do something but not actually being able to do it. you won't be able to bend the bar or drive it back to directly over your hips, but you are "trying" to. that's what activates the muscles.

solutions: vary your grip to see what works best. a wide grip takes your upper body out of the equation, so you could try that. a narrow grip brings in body mechanics, but may allow you to stay tighter. your will probably get sore elbows with an extremely narrow grip.

b) try some hip pull thrus before you squat or some supported leg raises. they will get you in the mindset of firing your glutes (a very difficult thing for some, myself included). at the bottom of the lift, make sure you keep your ass flexed and push your hips forward as you rise. buying a pair of squat briefs may help you to feel the tightness in your butt. it'll also add about 50 lbs to your squat (just know you'll need powder or compression shorts to get them on at first). $20.00 bucks at inzernet.com. practice practice practice. when you are doing lighter weight that you can absolutely control, concentrate on your form. practice makes perfect. if you are lifting for power, your first rep should be your best. if you are bodybuilding, you can essentially forget everything i am writing.

d) stand natural in the "linebacker stance/athletic position." that's where your toes should be unless you really know what you're doing. your body knows what's comfortable and what's natural. if it hurts or pulls your knee, it's wrong. so long as you can track your knees over your toes, you'll be fine.

don't get too caught up in glute/ham complex squatting. powerlifters use that wide stance to get their quads out of the lift and train that motion constantly. it is doubtful that anyone on this board, myself especially, can routinely (at over 90% 1RM) hit that form with no quad activation like a champion powerlifter you'll see on youtube.

11/1/2011 10:17:15 AM

pilgrimshoes
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thank you for the informative post, maximus.

11/1/2011 12:36:34 PM

MattJMM2
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Speed box squats, heavy good mornings, and ab roll outs really seemed to help get my squat weight up.

Once I was able to confidently good morning 300+lbs for a rep or two, my comfort level with squatting heavy shot way up.

11/1/2011 12:44:18 PM

eleusis
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this thread appears to be more about powerlifting than bodybuilding. It would be beneficial for us to either have a separate thread or a list of each individual's goals so that advice could be properly tailored to the audience. I think we have a bunch of people in here thinking that lifting heavy weights will make them bigger, and that is not necessarily true. I personally feel that the vast majority of posters in here are lifting way too heavy with too few reps for their actual goals.

11/1/2011 1:44:09 PM

maximus
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^
while i do agree that the majority of what i post is power/strength training oriented, i kind of like seeing what other people's fitness goals are.

i like seeing your posts about bodybuilding and i try to add some of that into my conjugate method.

i guess i could post some more stuff about bodybuilding seeing as i am out of the westside cycle now and into a mass building routine

Incline Bench Press: 10x8x6x4
1 Arm Hammer Strength Incline Press (while static holding the other arm): 3x10
Pec Deck Flies: 3x10
EZ Curl Preacher Curls: 12x10x8x8
Standing 1 Arm Shoulder Height Cable Curls: 3x20
Hammer Curls: 3x20
Forearm Work
Roman Chair Sit Ups: 3x20
Smith Machine Calf Raises: 3xFailure (around 25-30)

11/1/2011 2:28:40 PM

pilgrimshoes
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i guess i lean more towards powerlifting training, even though the numbers i put up would never be considered powerlifting . main desire is to increase strength, size is relatively unnecessary. if it comes as a byproduct, then cool. if not, no biggie. workin on my powerlifter's barrel belly

i don't ever really go for hypertrophy. the only things i really take to multiple set high rep complete failure are things like dips/chins/pullups/weighted ab bullshit. when the weight was a little lighter, i'd do more accessory work in the high rep range, but i've had to cut that back. on stronglifts, there's three lifting days per week, with three compound lifts as the main lifts, each in a 5x5 except deads, with a 1x5 working set weight. each time you do one of the main lifts, you add 5lbs if you've completed the previous workout with good form. except deads, where it's 10. if you don't complete the 5x5, do the same weight next time. if you fail the second time, try again. fail on the third, then deload 10% off and start up again. after two deloads on an individual lift, drop down to 3x5s, with the same increases and deloading scheme. all except deadlifts of course.

you can see where too much accessory work could be detrimental to progress, mostly in recovery. with warmup work and 25 working weight squats three times a week you kinda take a pounding. especially for a body that's not yet that keen to recovery from lifting. i only ever picked up a barbell for the first time in my life less than a year ago.

the training volume and scheduling of powerlifting is a major plus. especially at the stage i am at right now. i tried a bodybuilding style split routine for several months that a trainer designed and worked with me on, and honestly i hated it. like, a lot.

yes i'm a sucker and bought into a particular program. i realize that. however, lifting like this blew away the 4 months or so i stuck to the bb split routine (what i started with). around this april i tried a similar program to what im doing now, but didn't do it right, very inconstantly, and wasn't dedicated to it. got enamored by the 5/3/1 program, did it for 2 months, realized it was targeted at a lifter that was waaaaayyyyyyy beyond where my kindergarten ass was, and got off of it and started over with stronglifts.

my plan is to stick to this until i no longer can make gains on the prescribed program, then switch to mad cow or texas method. maybe something else. not sure yet. after this i plan to re-evaluate what my goals are. i assume that this track will take a good bit over a year, perhaps more.

i do understand that pretty soon it will become more beneficial to add in some more accessory work, probably as assistance to weak spots. at this point, i'm not experienced enough to diagnose, or accurately prescribe assistance things. so i stick to the mains, with minor variations to mix things up... for example instead of just keeping to standard deadlift ill do the warmups, working weight, then do a set of dimmel deads or a few sets of sumo deads to get some other work in.

ramble.

[Edited on November 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM. Reason : also i read wayyyyy too much on the internet]

11/1/2011 2:58:36 PM

MattJMM2
CapitalStrength.com
1905 Posts
user info
edit post

I train for general strength and aesthetics. More strength oriented though.

I'm of the opinion that most beginners who jump right in to a hypertrophy program of high reps and volume, while neglecting building a strong foundation are not maximizing their training economy.

Also, I think a lot of people (including myself) get lost in the minutiae. Rather than just getting progressively stronger and increasing their work capacity over time. If you can do that, and stay relatively lean, you will look great.

However, if you are trying to be a competitive body builder, and you do all the things that go along with that; then your training style will be significantly different than the average joe who is just looking to get stronger and look good naked.

11/1/2011 4:12:40 PM

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