Quote :

" They are the 99%: 99% white 99% unemployed 99% unsure of what to do with their life"

So you just described Joe the Plumber. I bet you thought we forgot about that fraud, eh?

10/8/2011 8:50:54 AM

reposting RedGuard's post for page 5:

--

Latest set of demands. Looks like the grown ups have finally stepped in and knocked some sense into the kids. I don't agree with all of this completely (and there are still a lot of vagaries like what exactly they're proposing with the "Buffett Rule"), but this is a lot more reasonable and practical than calls for free college tuition, dismantling the entire global trading system and other nonsensical fantasies.

Quote :

" CONGRESS PASS HR 1489 ("RETURN TO PRUDENT BANKING ACT" http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h112-1489 ). THIS REINSTATES MANY PROVISIONS OF THE GLASS-STEAGALL ACT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act --- Wiki entry summary: The repeal of provisions of the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933 by the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act in 1999 effectively removed the separation that previously existed between investment banking which issued securities and commercial banks which accepted deposits. The deregulation also removed conflict of interest prohibitions between investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. Most economists believe this repeal directly contributed to the severity of the Financial crisis of 2007–2011 by allowing Wall Street investment banking firms to gamble with their depositors' money that was held in commercial banks owned or created by the investment firms. Here's detail on repeal in 1999 and how it happened: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass–Steagall_Act#Repeal . USE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORITY AND OVERSIGHT TO ENSURE APPROPRIATE FEDERAL AGENCIES FULLY INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THE WALL STREET CRIMINALS who clearly broke the law and helped cause the 2008 financial crisis in the following notable cases: (insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions). There is a pretty broad consensus that there is a clear group of people who got away with millions / billions illegally and haven't been brought to justice. Boy would this be long overdue and cathartic for millions of Americans. It would also be a shot across the bow for the financial industry. If you watch the solidly researched and awared winning documentary film "Inside Job" that was narrated by Matt Damon (pretty brave Matt!) and do other research, it wouldn't take long to develop the list. CONGRESS ENACT LEGISLATION TO PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY BY REVERSING THE EFFECTS OF THE CITIZENS UNITED SUPREME COURT DECISION which essentially said corporations can spend as much as they want on elections. The result is that corporations can pretty much buy elections. Corporations should be highly limited in ability to contribute to political campaigns no matter what the election and no matter what the form of media. This legislation should also RE-ESTABLISH THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES IN THE U.S. SO THAT POLITICAL CANDIDATES ARE GIVEN EQUAL TIME FOR FREE AT REASONABLE INTERVALS IN DAILY PROGRAMMING DURING CAMPAIGN SEASON. The same should extend to other media. CONGRESS PASS THE BUFFETT RULE ON FAIR TAXATION SO THE RICH AND CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE & CLOSE CORPORATE TAX LOOP HOLES AND ENACT A PROHIBITION ON HIDING FUNDS OFF SHORE. No more GE paying zero or negative taxes. Pass the Buffet Rule on fair taxation so the rich pay their fair share. (If we have a really had a good negotiating position and have the place surrounded, we could actually dial up taxes on millionaires, billionaires and corporations even higher...back to what they once were in the 50's and 60's. CONGRESS COMPLETELY REVAMP THE SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION and staff it at all levels with proven professionals who get the job done protecting the integrity of the marketplace so citizens and investors are both protected. This agency needs a large staff and needs to be well-funded. It's currently has a joke of a budget and is run by Wall St. insiders who often leave for high ticket cushy jobs with the corporations they were just regulating. Hmmm. CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS. CONGRESS PASSING "Revolving Door Legislation" LEGISLATION ELIMINATING THE ABILITY OF FORMER GOVERNMENT REGULATORS GOING TO WORK FOR CORPORATIONS THAT THEY ONCE REGULATED. So, you don't get to work at the FDA for five years playing softball with Pfizer and then go to work for Pfizer making $195,000 a year. While they're at it, Congress should pass specific and effective laws to enforce strict judicial standards of conduct in matters concerning conflicts of interest. So long as judges are culled from the ranks of corporate attorneys the 1% will retain control. ELIMINATE "PERSONHOOD" LEGAL STATUS FOR CORPORATIONS. The film "The Corporation" has a great section on how corporations won "personhood status". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SuUzmqBewg . Fast-forward to 2:20. It'll blow your mind. The 14th amendment was supposed to give equal rights to African Americans. It said you "can't deprive a person of life, liberty or property without due process of law". Corporation lawyers wanted corporations to have more power so they basically said "corporations are people." Amazingly, between 1890 and 1910 there were 307 cases brought before the court under the 14th amendment. 288 of these brought by corporations and only 19 by African Americans. 600,000 people were killed to get rights for people and then judges applied those rights to capital and property while stripping them from people. It's time to set this straight. "

agreed, looks like people with some goddamn sense finally jumped in. I also don't fully agree with everything, but at least there is some solid reasoning behind the demands... as opposed to "make college super easy and free and impossible to fail so nobody has to work hard" bullshit.

10/8/2011 9:00:59 AM

I agree with most of those. Also, get rid of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc, which are fueling the financial madness.

10/8/2011 9:24:20 AM

For page 5:

I'll actually agree with those. I hope this trend of having appropriate demands continues, especially to lessen the influence of corporations on politics.

I did lol at this though

Quote :

"(insert list of the most clear cut criminal actions)"

10/8/2011 10:50:51 AM

^^^ link to those?

10/8/2011 12:30:00 PM

Quote :

"Is the CEO who pulls in that salary really a 1000 times smarter, harder working, or more motivated than one of his employees? Is it right that "financial engineers" (the great minds behind mortgage securities and credit default swaps) make 100 to a 1000 times more than the engineers who design our computers, bridges, and cars? Should lawyers be making $300,000 a year while teachers make $30,000 ? "

1. He doesn't get paid for being smarter, harder working, or more motivated (he doubtlessly is, although maybe 1000x so in proportion to his salary). He gets paid for his value. It's a supply/demand thing.

Quote :

"Again, I really don't think people who call taxation "unfair" or "class warfare" are looking at the big picture."

I called it class warfare due to your stance that people "make too much money". It had nothing to do with taxes.

10/8/2011 12:32:13 PM

Quote :

"CONGRESS PASS SPECIFIC AND EFFECTIVE LAWS LIMITING THE INFLUENCE OF LOBBYISTS AND ELIMINATING THE PRACTICE OF LOBBYISTS WRITING LEGISLATION THAT ENDS UP ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS."

hahahahaha. they really are stupid, naive children

10/8/2011 12:33:19 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, because that's what I said. Everything I said was in response to calling raising taxes on the rich "unfair" or "class warfare"."

and all of your responses were basically class warfare. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!! HE MAKES TOO MUCH MONEY!!!!!!!!!! that's god damned class warfare, you stupid fuck.

Quote :

"See folks, THAT'S what class warfare looks like."

you completely missed the point, lol. What mofopack posted was EXACTLY the same as what you posted. The only difference was the class of people he targeted.

Quote :

"4 - A financial transaction tax or Bank tax (that somehow takes into account bank size and leverage)"

you do realize that you'll be the one paying that tax, right? stupid fuck.

10/8/2011 1:20:11 PM

Quote :

"you do realize that you'll be the one paying that tax, right? stupid fuck."

the transaction tax should limit high-frequency trading that is of pretty questionable value IMO. The alternative being just banning it, but then someone has to decide what frequency is allowed and what isn't. The tax would only have to be pretty small to curtail it.

[Edited on October 8, 2011 at 1:59 PM. Reason : also lol at you calling anyone a stupid fuck]

10/8/2011 1:58:47 PM

that changes things little. It would curtail nothing. You know why? Because, as I said, that tax would be paid by us. How? Because the banks would simply pass it along. funny how liberal wet dreams always end up soaking the people

10/8/2011 2:00:38 PM

Quote :

"This is a letter to OWS from FedUpUSA, one of the original Tea Parties: We support you in exercising your First Amendment Right. We are outraged that any peaceful demonstrator would be assaulted or abused by any authorities. If you are protesting because there are no jobs— We stand with you. We are for a free economy and recognize that what we have now is NOT a free economy; it is not capitalism – what we have is a fascist state or crony-capitalism. There is nothing free about doing business with Countries that manipulate their currencies to attract cheap labor. We agree that these jobs need to come back to America. If you are protesting because no one has gone to jail— We stand with you. Regardless of what is being said from the white house and media, we know that there are many in the financial district and the banks that have committed fraud and outright theft and we too want to see them prosecuted. We support the stop looting and start prosecuting. If you are protesting because everything costs more— We stand with you. We see prices rise in our food, gas, clothes yet our wages have stayed the same or have decreased. The Federal Reserve has bailed everyone out but us and not only are we going to have to pay for that, those bailouts make the price of everything else go up because it devalues our currency. We support monetary reform. If you are protesting because you are tired of our bought and paid for government on both sides— We stand with you. We are also against the banks and big corporations buying our politicians and writing laws that favor their special interests. We understand that our economy is broken BECAUSE of this and that all of our other issues will never be addressed as long as the financial elite control OUR government. We understand that these issues cross party lines and ideologies and effect each and every one of us. We also understand that these issues will never get fixed as long as we continue to let the media, the elite, and members of the government separate us by our differing ideologies. Only Together, can we Implement Change It is time, We Americans, put our ideologies in our back pocket and not let them separate us so that we can work together for this ONE COMMON GOAL: to get the special interest money and elite out of OUR Government and return it to US— the people. As long as the banks, largest corporations, and wealthy elite control our government, we will never have a representative republic and laws will continue to be passed that only benefit the few 1% at the expense of us 99%! Demand that NOT ONE MORE LAW gets passed until they pass: Lobby reform: It is a Federal Offense punishable by a minimum 5 years in prison to: Lobby any member of the US Congress outside of the district you live, work, or own a business. Lobby a member of congress while they are physically outside the district they represent. Campaign Reform: It is a Federal Offense punishable by a minimum 5 years in prison to: For any one person, corporation, enterprise, group, union or the like, to donate more than $2,000 to any one candidate during one campaign period. For any member of the media to deny equal access to competing candidates. These two laws will cut the control the Financial elite have on our government by leveling the playing field. You will have just as big as a voice with your representative as the big box retailer that resides in your town. Simply, it will end the Crony-Capitalism that is strangling our economy. I encourage all my fellow Tea Partiers to join Occupy Wall Street protesters in their non-violent, peaceful protests and together demand that the Government be returned to the people. After all, this is precisely what the Tea Party was intended to be before it was taken over and marginalized by the establishment politicians."

http://www.fedupusa.org/2011/10/an-open-letter-from-fedupusa-to-occupy-wall-street-protestors-all-over-the-country/

Some of this doesn't jibe too well with the First Amendment but it appears to be spreading across the aisle a bit

10/8/2011 2:41:06 PM

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/

Yes, it's not truly "official", but in their forums, it appears to be the closest to a "sticky" tag and has a huge number of comments.

Also, it appears that the DC group tried to storm the Air & Space Museum today to protest the unmanned drone exhibit. Guards were preventing the hundreds of protestors from bringing in their large banners. It appears that some of the protestors basically trapped a guard against the wall and another guard brought out the pepper spray after that. One arrest.

Think this one is a wash: it's understandable why they targeted the museum, but to hit a popular non-profit museum like that won't win much public support. They should've stormed a government building like Congressional offices or a military instead.

10/8/2011 7:46:34 PM

Haha wow that is retarded. Go protest Lockheed or whoever makes them if you're going to protest unmanned drones (which really isn't the point of these things anyway). They need to keep it economic-focused for now.

10/8/2011 8:12:00 PM

Yeah, I have a big problem with them storming the museum. What fat cats would they be protesting there? The only people they would irritate would be other 99%ers who want to explore some cool exhibits. Odds are all they would accomplish is fucking up a familiy's vacation

10/9/2011 8:56:48 AM

Quote :

"that changes things little. It would curtail nothing. You know why? Because, as I said, that tax would be paid by us. How? Because the banks would simply pass it along. funny how liberal wet dreams always end up soaking the people "

I've read that close to 70% of all the volume on Wall Street are high-frequency trades. Most of the "normal people" that I know aren't making a living off trades with a tiny .25% profit margin thousands of times a second. If getting rid of some of that type trading slows the market down a bit and gets rid of some of its volatility then I see that as a plus. Traders would actually have to start investing rather than gambling.

10/9/2011 2:34:59 PM

high frequency trading without a doubt does not add value to the economy. It is purely a form of frontrunning, and therefore should be illegal.

We divest a lot of resources away from productive activities so that a few computer programmers and financial companies can get rich illegally.

10/9/2011 7:46:02 PM

^ there is a form of HFT that does validly create value. Frontrunning, however, is not this.

Something like 60% of all trades are decided by machines now. How much of those are actually helping price realization, and how many of them are just destabilizing the market by using privileged information? I don't know.

10/9/2011 7:48:26 PM

^If you accept that the profit you make off of a trade is the best measure of how useful that move was for the overall economy then thats where the tax can come in. I actually accept that small profit margins on the order of 1%-3% may actually be useful even if they are traded at high frequencies (maybe they are in some cases but not others, I dunno) The trades that are earning what seem to amount to rounding errors I just don't see how they add value. A tax that makes those extremely small trades unprofitable could atleast limit the mindless trading but shouldn't take the incentive away from more normal trades.

10/9/2011 8:33:52 PM

You don't even need a stock market to have a high-performing economy, anyway. The current stock market just perverts corporate incentives and fosters inflation.

10/9/2011 8:35:24 PM

Oh really? You understand why companies go public and sell stock, right? Obviously not.

10/9/2011 9:44:09 PM

To do what they already do via private stock sales, bond, and bank finance? Or is it to strike it rich from an insane IPO then bail because they have no real business?

Do you know what the point of holding stock is? (Obviously not). Holding a share of a company meant you were entitled to a share of the profits. Now, the expectation of inflation is so natural, that people assume that all income from shares should come from capital gains.

10/10/2011 8:41:47 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoPwo3STiXo&feature=youtu.be

What a bunch of assholes. You're publicly protesting, you are part of a (like it or not) newsworthy event, yes that implies consent to be filmed. For people trying to exercise your first amendment right to publicly protest and seek redress from the government you sure don't seem to have much of a grasp on the freedom of the press part.

Citizen Journalists: Useful for holding the fascist police accountable, but a tool of fascists when attempting to record your meeting.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 11:10 AM. Reason : asdfsfd]

10/10/2011 11:02:17 AM

are you seriously getting worked up over that? A group of people politely ask a guy to stop filming them, when he doesn't a guy gets in a fairly polite argument over whether he should be allowed to film. eventually he goes back to filming and people stand in front of him blocking his view (well within their rights)

I guess im not seeing the outrage

10/10/2011 11:14:18 AM

It's just a lot of ridiculous. You're making a huge scene, and then getting upset when you're filmed. This doesn't seem odd, stupid, or hypocritical to anyone?

10/10/2011 11:37:21 AM

Quote :

"Anonymous declared "war" on the New York Stock Exchange this weekend and vowed to "erase" the NYSE from the Internet on Oct. 10 as the Occupy Wall Street protest entered its third week in New York City after a weekend that saw hundreds of protesters arrested during a planned march across the Brooklyn Bridge. "On Oct. 10, NYSE shall be erased from the Internet. On Oct. 10, expect a day that will never, ever be forgotten," intoned a computer-generated male voice common to many Anonymous videos, in a warning posted on TheAnonMessage YouTube channel (video below). "

So.........

10/10/2011 1:06:13 PM

They released this last week.

10/10/2011 1:43:18 PM

10/10/2011 1:43:20 PM

^interesting way to look at it.


But I'd wish to clarify it.

Peoples, Corporations, and the entity of the Government

-People build corporations.
-People make up the government.
-Corporations make money for people
-Government takes money from the people to redistribute back to the people and pay for the government
-Government takes money from corporations to redistribute back to the people in different ways.
-Corporations give money to the government to make more relaxed rules so it can make more money
-Government gives money to corporations when they are LARGE and if left to fail would not be able to give money to the people and their services
-Government creates laws to limit corporations growth opportunities
-People create corporations
-Government does not create corporations
-People change the government and it's laws over time


Yes, these are all obvious facts. But from that, how could you blame the corporations. They are simply reacting to the government and it's laws to make money and give it to its people to survive.

If you live your life such that you survive from the means of the government I can see why you would want to fight the corporations since they don't for some reason give you a piece of the pie that they created.


somebody please poke holes in this and let me 'see the light' and where i am wrong.

no trolling. no sarcasm. literally trying to see what is up with some people.

10/10/2011 2:00:59 PM

^Powerful people with interests that are other than those of general public [ab]use power of corporations and the Government to advance their personal interests.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 2:17 PM. Reason : in basic terms]

10/10/2011 2:16:43 PM

^ but if it's legal why can't they.


The government again is to blame. The people [who elect the government] are responsible for electing people that will not take the bribes, and will change the laws to stop these [ab]usive corporations as you say.

It's a simple process. It does not require a permanent occupation of some randome cities and outright assaults on certain random corporations. You simply find trustworthy individuals to 'change the government' to what your opinion is of it all.

10/10/2011 2:26:40 PM

This is amusing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047168/Occupy-Wall-Street-protesters-make-love-class-war-sex-drugs-tap.html

10/10/2011 3:48:06 PM

Corporations have NO POWER of you.....unless the govt gives them some. Be pissed at the govt for doing it.

10/10/2011 4:13:48 PM

So it's the egg and not the chicken? Which is the problem? Lobbyists or the government kowtowing to lobbyists?

10/10/2011 4:21:33 PM

^ no not one bit

let me translate those little phrases you wrote:
"government kowtowing to lobbyists" = people with government jobs (specifically legislative voting privileges who are taking money from corporations and changing their votes to align with whatever the corporation wants

100% of the problem is the douchecunts taking the bribes and swinging their vote for a few dollars.

So the voters who put these freaks in need to wise up and get better leaders.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 4:36 PM. Reason : ,]

10/10/2011 4:34:36 PM

Lobbyists are necessary.

Dirty lobbyists are blameworthy, and action should be taken against them to the extent that it can be.

Crooked politicians (which is to say, almost all of them, as it's all but necessary to attain power in Washington--it's kinda like steroids in sports--if everyone else is doing it, you can either do it or get left behind) are the worst of all and should be held the most accountable. Lobbyists represent their respective interests, and can to an extent be expected to do what they do. Government officials are at least supposed to represent the American people and the U.S. Constitution, so from the perspective of constituents, our rage should rightfully largely be directed at Washington.

10/10/2011 5:36:10 PM

It is being directed at Washington. The point of doing it at Wall Street is because they're the ones who paid to get the deregulation that gave them the freedom to make all kinds of mortgages they knew would fail and leverage all their shit through the roof with credit default swaps. But ultimately it is a protest against the government.

You say, "the voters who put these freaks in need to wise up and get better leaders," but that's exactly what they're trying to do. I mean, damn, who else are you going to vote for? We effectively get two choices in any major election right now. Corporate money decides who gets nominated, who gets elected, and what they do when they're in office. You can't just slip in "corporations give money to the government to make more relaxed rules so it can make more money" as if that's a good thing, when really that's the root of the problem. It may be legal, but there's no reason that couldn't be changed if we had policymakers who were willing to do things about it. As a side note, I know lobbyists do have an important function in government and you can't get rid of them, but their monetary contributions and staff positions could definitely be limited, etc.

But that's the purpose of the protests - If you can't be heard at the polls, you have to be heard through public demonstration. Right now, our representatives are beholden to the corporations, not to the people, and these guys are expressing that in a way that's actually getting some attention. You might think they're idiot hippies, but they're getting a lot of media attention and people in Congress aren't just ignoring them like they've done pretty much every other protest of the last 30 years.

Nobody (nobody reasonable, anyway) wants to get rid of corporations, though, which is why that picture that got posted of the protesters using iPads and Sony cameras was so asinine. It's great that Apple makes iPads, and it's great that Sony makes cameras, and people would like to buy them. I think all people are saying is that they need to stick to making iPads and cameras instead of spending money lobbying for tax holidays on offshore profits. Although in this respect, corporations are pretty messed up since their express purpose is to hoard as much money as possible out of everyone else's hands by any means necessary.

10/10/2011 6:41:09 PM

Quote :

"It is being directed at Washington. The point of doing it at Wall Street is because they're the ones who paid to get the deregulation that gave them the freedom to make all kinds of mortgages they knew would fail and leverage all their shit through the roof with credit default swaps. But ultimately it is a protest against the government."

Well, the symbolism of doing it on Wall St instead of Capitol Hill is not lost, and I don't think I've heard nearly as much talk about the corruption in Washington as I have heard populist bullshit about the evil corporations and rich people, maaaaan. I guess what I'm saying is that they have the right idea, but they're approaching it from a very wrong angle, both ideologically and practically.

That, and they're packaging it with a shit ton of other idiotic garbage.



Oh, and the housing bubble/crash was due to a perfect storm of deregulation from the right, cheap money, a fucked-up consumer culture in America, and...the left's attempts at social engineering by promoting home ownership by people who shouldn't be buying houses.

You can have programs that promote things like that, or you can have deregulation. When you have both, you're flirting with disaster.

Quote :

"I mean, damn, who else are you going to vote for? We effectively get two choices in any major election right now. "

I've said many, many times on here that I mostly vote for No Confidence.

Quote :

"You can't just slip in "corporations give money to the government to make more relaxed rules so it can make more money" as if that's a good thing, when really that's the root of the problem. It may be legal, but there's no reason that couldn't be changed if we had policymakers who were willing to do things about it. As a side note, I know lobbyists do have an important function in government and you can't get rid of them, but their monetary contributions and staff positions could definitely be limited, etc."

Well no shit, that's exactly what i said.

Quote :

"But that's the purpose of the protests - If you can't be heard at the polls, you have to be heard through public demonstration. Right now, our representatives are beholden to the corporations, not to the people, and these guys are expressing that in a way that's actually getting some attention. You might think they're idiot hippies, "

Exactly; my entire point is that they are scuttling their own ship by going about this in just about the most stupid conceivable way. Dude, really? Did you read anything that I wrote?

Quote :

"lobbying for tax holidays on offshore profits"

Hmmm...I wonder what it is about our tax policy in this country that encourages this? Could it be that we have insanely high corporate taxes, coupled with a status quo of riddling the tax with myriad exemptions? Before you say it, yes, I understand where those exemptions originate (at least on the corporate side)--whomever pulls the strings the hardest with their lobbyists. I'm with you on that one--and I think that almost all big and small-"L" libertarians, as well as even a large part of the Tea Party crowd in the GOP would be, too. My point is that if these bongo-toting rejects from the coffeehouse want to get anything done, they need to ditch the other 90% of stuff they're talking about (all the leftist/populist/protectionist/it's everyone's fault but mine shit), and ditch the stuff about the "evil corporations and rich people, maaaaaan". Put the blame where it's mostly largely due, and then BAM, you have a legitimate coalition across a WIDE political spectrum of both parties, which is what it will take to exert any useful leverage on both parties.

10/10/2011 9:02:11 PM

^That response was more toward pack_bryan than for you. Just the lobbyist part was in response to your comment. Which is reasonable.

EDIT: I'm not entirely convinced on their methods yet, but I think the intent is good. It's only been going on for a few weeks, and it should get more organized. There's some website where people can vote on what demands they want to make, and there's currently some really dumb shit on there (re-investigate 9/11, repeal the 16th Amendment (which seems to go against the "tax the rich" sentiment, but that's probably the Ron Paul crowd)). It just annoys me when people on here say shit like "dumb liberal fags should get jobs and that will solve all their problems," when the point is deeper than "you have more money than me." Sorry if that came across as directed toward you personally.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 9:24 PM. Reason : ]

10/10/2011 9:18:02 PM

I'll agree that narrative needs to be narrowed down to one thing in order to have the most effectiveness, and that over-expanding their demands will just stretch their resources too thin and lose their appeal.

But, even if you want to label this as some sort of populist uprising, can you really blame them? 15% of the country is below the poverty line. That can't be the result of 1 out of 6 people instantly becoming lazy over night (which just so happened to occur during the worst financial crisis since the great depression). It's the highest it's been since 1993, and unemployment is locked at 10% "new unemployed," and the real numbers of unemployment and underemployment are probably above the 20% range. It's taking people an average of almost a year to get employed, meanwhile wealth is being accumulated at the top.

And these aren't your typical disenfranchised demographics, either. They're not just the poor minority groups of the past. Many of these are fresh college grads (spare me the liberal arts bullshit, that's a petty argument to make and you know it), and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this started to coincide with the student loan bubble that's bound to burst.

If you want to call it class-warfare (which is a trite oversimplification, but whatever) then go ahead. But shouldn't the status quo of shrinking the American middle-class also be called class warfare? Why is it only class warfare when the people at the bottom of the pyramid try to manipulate the system? How much more dire should the circumstances get until they have the right to protest? It's too easy to dismiss them as liberal-hippy-faggot-stalinist-militant-tree huggers, and they can't all possibly fall into that group. So if the numbers of unemployment/underemployment/debt saddled youngsters is the highest it has been since the great depression, why wouldn't they protest?

10/10/2011 10:47:58 PM

^TL;DR;

JesusHChrist is a failure at life and doesn't have a skill that will support or add to society and therefore can't get a job or make money.

it's your fault wall street. all of you bankers. give me my hard earned money back you evil people.



[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 11:01 PM. Reason : stop being a candy ass JesusHChrist]

10/10/2011 10:59:07 PM

I see your bait.

10/10/2011 11:01:58 PM

you are right we should take the money from the corporations so we poor people can be rich finally like them


then when we've taken all the money from the corporations we wil................ ooh shit. what will we do then

10/10/2011 11:04:37 PM

Quote :

"no trolling. no sarcasm. literally trying to see what is up with some people."

Trolling by denying that you're trolling. The ultimate troll technique.

10/10/2011 11:13:37 PM

Quote :

"15% of the country is below the poverty line. That can't be the result of 1 out of 6 people instantly becoming lazy over night (which just so happened to occur during the worst financial crisis since the great depression). It's the highest it's been since 1993, and unemployment is locked at 10% "new unemployed," and the real numbers of unemployment and underemployment are probably above the 20% range. It's taking people an average of almost a year to get employed, meanwhile wealth is being accumulated at the top. And these aren't your typical disenfranchised demographics, either. They're not just the poor minority groups of the past. Many of these are fresh college grads (spare me the liberal arts bullshit, that's a petty argument to make and you know it), and it wouldn't surprise me at all if this started to coincide with the student loan bubble that's bound to burst."

It's basically the correction of another bubble. I don't know what to call it, exactly...Talent bubble? Employment bubble?

During boom times, companies could have a little fat and still make gobs of money. The recession caused a culling of the herd, a burning of the deadwood, whatever you want to call it. That's why productivity numbers have been doing pretty well, but not employment numbers, even though the former feeds off of (and in this case is constrained by, to an extent) the latter. The American economic machine is working very efficiently now, relatively speaking. The downside is that it's partly due to a lot of people getting voted off the island.

You couple that with what is without a doubt an education bubble--there's a student loan bubble, too, but it's even broader than that, and the student loan bubble just aggravates the bigger problem--all kinds of people go to college just because it's the thing to do these days, and they really have no business being there. It devalues the bachelor's degree and they incur a shitload of debt in many cases for a benefit that just isn't worth it.

...and I don't really know what's petty about the liberal arts argument. I mean, you go get an undergrad degree in literature or something during bad economic times, and then you can't find a decent job? What the hell did you think was going to happen?

Quote :

"If you want to call it class-warfare (which is a trite oversimplification, but whatever) then go ahead. But shouldn't the status quo of shrinking the American middle-class also be called class warfare? Why is it only class warfare when the people at the bottom of the pyramid try to manipulate the system?"

Well, to start with, if you'll read what I'm saying, it's pretty clear that I'm calling out the corporatists at the very top of the pyramid, too. I'm very pro-business...I just don't want them to have undue political influence. You might as well have our elected officials sold out to the mob.

The other difference is that those at the top aren't blaming the bottom of the pyramid for all of their problems, regardless of whether or not they caused them. I mean, when's the last time you saw a CEO whining about "goddamn poor people, if only they'd work hard to produce more, and while they're at it earn more so they could consume more, I'd be even richer"? Rich people don't want anything from poor people in the same sense that it works the other way around.




This is primarily a gov't problem, not a business problem. The protesters are viewing it from the wrong angle, and at the same time doing damn near everything in their power to alienate the significant number of people across the rest of the political spectrum who might otherwise be interested in joining their cause.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 11:19 PM. Reason : ]

10/10/2011 11:17:43 PM

ActionPants,
America is having to import students to learn trade jobs. Americans like ActionPants do not want to do the legit hard working jobs.

As example ... Welders ... There is a 100% chance of finding a Welding Job after graduating for Welding.
How many other jobs can say that?
100% percent!
They're having to get people from other countries to come here, go to school, become citizens, then work for the companies.
BECAUSE AMERICANS LIKE ActionPants WON'T DO IT!



Yeah you go right ahead and protest you fucking telemarketer wannabes.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 11:28 PM. Reason : .]

10/10/2011 11:27:15 PM

Quote :

"That's why productivity numbers have been doing pretty well, but not employment numbers, even though the former feeds off of (and in this case is constrained by, to an extent) the latter. The American economic machine is working very efficiently now, relatively speaking. "

Gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Working 80 hours a week for months on end because a company doesn't want to take on more people is not sustainable in the long run. I'm talking from personal experience. People working because their feet are close to the fire might have some short term benefits, but I can't see this lasting.

Quote :

"...and I don't really know what's petty about the liberal arts argument. I mean, you go get an undergrad degree in literature or something during bad economic times, and then you can't find a decent job? What the hell did you think was going to happen?"

No, what I'm saying is that people are just assuming that the waves of unemployed people all have fagggy Women's studies degrees. There's just no proof to support that claim. None. Period. People make that argument because it reinforces the "their problem, not mine" attitude. And even if a handful do (which they might) the numbers just don't add up. 20%+ of the population can't all have gotten shitty degrees.

Quote :

"Well, to start with, if you'll read what I'm saying, it's pretty clear that I'm calling out the corporatists at the very top of the pyramid, too. I'm very pro-business...I just don't want them to have undue political influence. You might as well have our elected officials sold out to the mob."

Wasn't calling you out, just the general broad assumptions that are being made.

Quote :

"I mean, when's the last time you saw a CEO whining about "goddamn poor people, if only they'd work hard to produce more, and while they're at it earn more so they could consume more, I'd be even richer"? Rich people don't want anything from poor people in the same sense that it works the other way around."

You don't. But you do see leaders of the republican party saying, "get a job, hippies." That's pretty lame, if you ask me.

And I agree with you that it is a political problem in nature. But occupying wall-street is a more effective method in this scenario than picketing the white house. I'm sure, as this thing germinates, that it will lead to a more politically charged climate rather than an anti-corporatist message (or at least I hope it does). They might add a few ron-paulian's and upset moderates, but I doubt they'll get any support from far-right leaning people. Just my opinion, but I don't see that happening.

I don't think they're gonna add any tea-partiers, though. At least not the mainstream tea-partiers. the taxed enough already crowd is likely going to want to protect the interest of the so called "job creators" even if it goes against their own best interests.

[Edited on October 10, 2011 at 11:35 PM. Reason : ]

10/10/2011 11:31:53 PM

10/10/2011 11:33:49 PM

Quote :

"Gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Working 80 hours a week for months on end because a company doesn't want to take on more people is not sustainable in the long run. I'm talking from personal experience. People working because their feet are close to the fire might have some short term benefits, but I can't see this lasting."

That's an exaggeration. In reality, businesses are just running leaner, but it doesn't always mean people are being overworked. It just means you only hire who you really need to. All the credit is being hogged up by the banks right now in the form of excess reserves, which means businesses can't grow.

Quote :

"20%+ of the population can't all have gotten shitty degrees."

Why not?

Quote :

"You don't. But you do see leaders of the republican party saying, "get a job, hippies." That's pretty lame, if you ask me."

That's what bothers me about Herman Cain's recent statements - he talks about how people just need to "work harder," while simultaneously supporting the banking system that routinely extracts wealth from the people. It's a load of horseshit.

10/10/2011 11:37:13 PM

Quote :

"That's an exaggeration. In reality, businesses are just running leaner, but it doesn't always mean people are being overworked."

I was talking about my personal experience. may not be true across the board, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was common.

Quote :

"Why not?"

does 20% of the population even have a degree? in order for this to be true, wouldn't that mean something like 70% of the population have degrees (with 20% having shit degrees?) The numbers just don't make sense. Unemployment is too high for that to be possible.

10/10/2011 11:41:04 PM

anyone that supports Occupy Wall Street and/or the Tea Party but isn't voting for Ron Paul is a certified retard.

You can't say you stand for one thing and then vote against the only candidate who supports what you claim to want.

10/11/2011 12:14:46 AM