Quote :

"very little concern for whether it makes sense for a character or in context of the world that existed in the rest of the seasons."

That nails this season in one sentence.

5/8/2019 10:23:48 AM

I've read all the books, and I'm going to enjoy the last couple episodes the best I can. You guys can get all twerked about every detail if you want, whatever gets your rocks off. I think there are more interesting things we could be discussing.

Quote :

"Is Jaime on a path to redemption, or is he still a hateful person like he claimed?"

The first time through the series, I started to like Jaime and thought he was coming around. However, while rewatching the series before this season, I didn't get the same feeling. When the seasons were watched back-to-back, pushing bran from the window and killing his cousin were too fresh when watching the later seasons. Brienne is definitely Jaime's foil. Brienne values her honor and commitments regardless of the difficulty of the situation or personal benefit. Jaime is best known for killing the king he was sworn to protect, and had a great monologue at one point where he says eventually you have made so many pledges and commitments that they start to contradict one another, and when his king ordered him to kill his father, he picked family over an oath. Brienne treasures finally being named a knight, something that Jaime has taken for granted since he has had every honor bestowed upon him that a knight could have (and he doesn't feel like he is an honorable man). Even after Jaime does hold up to his pledge to send the stark girls back to Catelyn (by asking Brienne to do it), he starts to slip back into his darker ways. He forces himself upon Cersei while in the sept with his dead son. His time with Brienne has affected him, but it is too early to say whether he is a changed man. He did leave Cersei to honor the commitment to fight the army of the dead, but he is still tempted to return back to Cersei.

Quote :

"Would Dany be a better ruler than Cersei?"

We have been on Dany's journey from rags to riches, and she has done many good deeds in her path to Westeros by freeing the slaves of slaver bay. However, she has always tiptoed the line of conquerer vs savior. She won the love of the slaves, but did not ever win the favor completely of the higher ups in slaver bay. She ruled through military force and fear of her dragons, and her darkest point is when she hid her dragons and tried to be a just ruler. Once she left with her dragons, she killed the sacred mothers of the dothraki and then killed the masters that were there to negotiate (albeit the masters weren't being honorable either). Can you "take" a kingdom without being a conquerer?

Quote :

"Should the people of Westeros support Dany or Jon? Or neither?"

This is the debate Tyrion and Varys had. Tyrion made a good point asking Varys about how many kings he had served. Varys switches allegiance quickly, and seems to be always drawn to the next big thing. Varys says he is loyal to the realm, but Tyrion questions what does that even mean? Varys is promoting yet another conflict between Jon and Dany before Cersei is even dethroned. He doesn't even believe that a married Jon/Dany is a good compromise. Dany was always contrasted to Cersei in their approaches to ruling their kingdoms. Cersei always did was best for her and her family, but Dany did try to make the best decisions for her people (although also always driven to become powerful enough to return to Westeros). Jon doesn't want the crown, and has never wanted to be a ruler (whether commander of night's watch or king of the north), but he always accepts the role. Neither Jon nor Dany know much about greater Westeros since neither has spent much time other than in the north. Would either accept the entire 7 kingdoms as their people, or would they continue to be biased by their own families?

Quote :

"Can Dany win the throne and keep the support of the people?"

Is Dany going to break the wheel, or let it continue to trample those that can't protect themselves? She is teetering on the edge of burning King's Landing to the ground just to kill Cersei, but this would be the same approach her father tried to keep his throne when he ordered his pyromancer to "burn them all". Will she follow in her father's footsteps or listen to her advisors to find another way? Does Dany still care about breaking the wheel?

5/8/2019 11:06:55 AM

I just came up with a theory, reminded/inspired by the end of ^ post. I could see them mirroring the death of Dany’s father for her. She says that she is going to burn them all (everyone in Kings Landing), and Tyrion kills her to prevent it, just as Jamie did. Jamie gets back to Kings Landing, kills Cersie, but also kills himself/dies in the process. The Hound kills The Mountain. Tyrion takes the throne, gives Highgarden to Bronn, Sansa is technically queen then because of the marriage and comes south, Jon takes over winterfell. Works for me.

5/8/2019 12:02:58 PM

^Sansa ending up on the Iron Throne is the boring "happy ending" that is the most obvious way this ends.

With that being said, I hope it's ANYTHING other than that at this point.

5/8/2019 1:55:04 PM

^agreed, and I’m sure the books (should they ever be finished) would be very different, but I could see the show doing it.

5/8/2019 2:26:45 PM

Cersei wins but at a cost. Causing a breakup and stalemate to the North.

5/8/2019 3:31:37 PM

I'm certain that Cersei isn't living through the finale. Jaime gonna kill her.

5/8/2019 4:53:55 PM

Among terrible things that happen to characters we like, it needs to be balanced with an awesome payoff. Hopefully Cersei dies. But give us a bone. I hope its not all doom and gloom.

5/8/2019 6:43:09 PM

Im mostly fine with it being 90% doom gloom if it's earned. The Wire gave like 3 people happy endings while everyone else was doomed to repeat the cycle. Sad, but earned as hell.

I mean, multiple characters have murdered children in this show, can't get much more doom and gloom than that. And at least two of them were "redeemed" and another got to pick their own way out.

[Edited on May 8, 2019 at 7:44 PM. Reason : E]

5/8/2019 7:42:20 PM

So are the Scorpion crossbows magic somehow? Because the laws of physics were being ridiculously violated every time one was used in the last episode.

5/9/2019 3:19:00 PM

Anyone else just not like Dany? I've always found her to be whiny, arrogant, and entitled. She has no problem sending countless people off to die so that she can sit the throne and has been that way since she got any whiff of power. I don't see her surviving, let alone winning the throne.

Jon I think will survive but not end up on the throne. Warden of, or ruler of a free north would be fitting. Gendry was who I had my money on because he's kinda neutral positive and would continue that cycle of war theme, but I guess Dany took care of that theory the last episode. All indications seem to be pointing to Sansa at the moment, but I think the casual audience would still be surprised by it not being Dany or Jon.

Agree with the sentiment that this season is pretty fucked. It's entertaining, but it's clear that the dots are being connected in very broad strokes by writers going from point A to B without any guidance whatsoever from GRRM. I think I remember reading that he basically had no involvement this season whereas in other seasons he's written scripts and been much more deeply involved in the process. They should have made it more episodes and taken their time, but I think D&D are just ready to wrap this show up and move on..

Quote :

"I've never read a single book. But at this point, if GRRM ever actually finishes the series, I'm going to buy and read every single book, just so I can see how it's actually supposed to end because I know it'll be better/deeper/more intricate than what we're seeing on screen this season."

In the meantime, if you have any interest in just getting a feel for GRRMs writing style, etc. read one or all of the novellas he wrote in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. There are three stories and they're just over a hundred pages or so each.

[Edited on May 9, 2019 at 3:24 PM. Reason : novellas]

5/9/2019 3:19:58 PM

I've never like her or her story line. In the books and the show.

5/9/2019 3:33:54 PM

Quote :

"So are the Scorpion crossbows magic somehow? Because the laws of physics were being ridiculously violated every time one was used in the last episode."

Can we stop talking about the "laws of physics" of crossbow in the same scene as a flying dragon?

5/9/2019 3:40:19 PM

No. This world has said "magic exists and there are dragons", that's established. However they have made no implications that the balistas are magic or that physics work differently in this world.

It doesn't make sense to say "this fiction has an element of fantasy, therefore there are no rules". Good fantasy sets up a world with rules and follows them.

If euron showed up with a giant spaceship, you wouldn't say "well there are dragons so this checks out too!"

5/9/2019 4:15:11 PM

5/9/2019 4:15:37 PM

Quote :

"If euron showed up with a giant spaceship, you wouldn't say "well there are dragons so this checks out too!" "

In a show with zombies and dragons, as long as it fits the narrative, I am willing to suspend my disbelief in anything.

[Edited on May 9, 2019 at 5:13 PM. Reason : And zombie dragons]

5/9/2019 5:13:14 PM

Look what they have done! We're fighting amongst ourselves!

5/9/2019 5:50:59 PM

^^Oh well in that case -- why didn't Euron just cobble together an Infinity Gauntlet from seashells and snap Dany's entire army into dust? I mean there is a zombie dragon on this show, so that means ANYTHING goes.

5/10/2019 9:17:12 AM

haha in the book he has the "Horn of Winter" that, when blown, shatters The Wall.

5/10/2019 10:14:23 AM

i'm mad that the tv show forgot about the horn and the wall magic and just had a dead dragon tear down the wall instead

5/10/2019 10:17:50 AM

the show really fucked up the Euron character building, the relationships of the Starks with their direwolves/warging, and the Dorne plot line.

5/10/2019 10:25:44 AM

Hey guys, can we talk about how dragons, which are clearly cold blooded reptiles, are able to survive in the frigid temperatures in the north. Are we just supposed to ignore basic ecology here?

5/10/2019 1:15:29 PM

Umm, because they have fire running through their veins, duh

5/10/2019 1:20:53 PM

would that make them hot blooded?

5/10/2019 1:23:25 PM

Dragons probably aren't ectotherms

5/10/2019 2:22:57 PM

^^^^https://www.futurity.org/game-of-thrones-dragons-science-2033542/

5/10/2019 2:39:27 PM

It has already been established that dragons can operate perfectly fine in cold climates. It has not been established that the large spear launcher things had any type of damping mechanism that prevents it from rocking the boat over.

5/10/2019 3:37:20 PM

Quote :

"in the book he has the "Horn of Winter" that, when blown, shatters The Wall."

He has the dragonbinder. Mance Rayder had the horn of winter in his company somewhere.

5/12/2019 12:01:45 AM

Can you watch live on HBO:go ? or is it delayed

5/12/2019 4:37:44 PM

Quote :

"Can you watch live on HBO:go ? or is it delayed"

I watch it every week on HBO Go. The episode posts around 8:57 PM EST.
No delay.

5/12/2019 4:48:52 PM

awesome. thanks

5/12/2019 5:43:34 PM

Still much goofier than the rest of the show has been, imo, but I'd say that was best of the season at least.

It's curious that the scorpions became so much more unwieldy and drogon is all of a sudden a fighter jet (both like it should have been last ep) but oh well.

Like that cleganes ended with fire.
Are gry work and Jon gonna fight?

5/12/2019 10:24:52 PM

Epic epic episode. I'll probably find critiques once it sets in, but holy shit that was insane

5/12/2019 10:30:48 PM

So Arya kills Daenerys, cool

5/12/2019 10:34:33 PM

Cinematography 10/10
Writing 2/10

5/12/2019 10:36:20 PM

damn really wanted a cersei throat cut by Arya.

Jamie hand of the mad king kills him. Tyrion hand of the mad queen doesn't.

Thought Arya might try to pick Dany off with an arrow.

5/12/2019 10:38:32 PM

Quote :

"Cinematography 10/10 Writing 2/10 "

Basically. So frustrating.

[Edited on May 12, 2019 at 10:46 PM. Reason : ]

5/12/2019 10:41:28 PM

I think we have seen the last of Arya

5/12/2019 10:41:59 PM

Theyve proven episode after episode that nothing that happened in the first 6 seasons matters one fuck all. Hell, not much that happened in prior episodes matters. Pleasing to the eye, not to the mind. Oh well, one more episode and then we can remember game of thrones as a great 6 season show

5/12/2019 10:46:14 PM

holy hell, that was intense

couple quick thoughts
- dany went full mad king, they emphasized that image by showing the wildfire exploding all over the city. She has walked that line of savior/conquerer, and they have set this season up to show the path to her current state. I knew Jon would be tested on his "you will always be my queen" line. She has gone (temporarily?) targaryen crazy, she didn't care if she roasted her own people or not.
- grey worm was in straight up revenge mode. you don't mess with that guy
- jaime's decision to leave also makes sense now. he finally accepted who he was and what he wanted. He was pulled in two directions, honor/duty by brienne and love by cersei. He may have disliked who he was, but in the end he knew what he wanted and that was the die in the arms of the woman he loves.
- now you see why they had to make decisions on CGI, this episode was epic, don't even miss seeing all the elements of the dead army now
- the only thing to drive the hound over his fear of fire was the hatred for his brother. Nice to see his arc closed. He came to care for Arya, prevented her from being driven by her list, and not to follow his same path.
- what happens to tyrion now? he either needs to redeem himself by helping "cure" the mad queen Dany (either by helping jon figure a way to bring her back or finding a way to remove her and her dragon). He either follows in the footsteps of varys (who he just condemned) or comes up with a clever way to reach Dany (I just don't see how Dany talks to him again without killing him). Or perhaps his story is truly just riches to rags.
- I also feel like sansa has to play one more part, but tough to see how she comes into the picture since she is back at winterfell.

5/12/2019 11:21:23 PM

Seems like they should have at least 2 more episodes but the next episode is going to be dense

5/12/2019 11:29:29 PM

Epic but knowing a characters state of mind would be nice. Thought Arya was prepared to die. The Hound had nothing cool to say? That's his thing. Why is Jon a bitch. Honestly don't mind danys turn. Who doesn't want to burn everyone right now.

Epic though. Made me realize Peter Jackson sucks even more. Tolkien fantasy needed more violence and sex. And dragons. Scale isn't everything just show us drogon burning people.

5/12/2019 11:37:33 PM

arya probably was ready to die when she set off with the hound. She left winterfell having just found out her closest sibling was never her sibling and having just turned down a path to potential happiness with gendry. Her main motivation for so long has been her list and getting revenge. She is still compelled to avenge her father by killing cersei and the mountain. That is much simpler in her mind than figuring out the politics of winterfell or marriage. As she said, she is not a lady and feels her purpose is in killing those people on her list.

On her journey, she started to work through those emotions. Sansa's words of the lone wolf dies and the pack survives have been eating away at her resolve (especially as she just reunited with her family). The breaking point is when sandor tells her that she can choose a different path and doesn't need to end up like him. She has seen the horrible things he has done on his path to revenge, and realizes that revenge is not always a glorious path.

5/12/2019 11:56:02 PM

Are you related to the show writers? I feel like you have the most generous reads of what happens on screen, imaging these made up deeply felt emotions and inner thoughts that weren't shown or implied at all.

Quote :

"honor/duty by brienne and love by cersei"

Bet brienne wishes he had told her he was only banging her out of duty

5/13/2019 12:18:19 AM

The more I think about the writing this season the worse it gets. And watching them discuss it afterwards just makes it more annoying. I fucking loved the books and the first 5-6 seasons of this show too.

[Edited on May 13, 2019 at 12:24 AM. Reason : ]

5/13/2019 12:21:47 AM

^yep...they talked about how they wanted to follow arya through the streets to show off the hell that was going on down there. No shit? The viewer needed 15 minutes of her being pushed through streets to know that being funneled into dragon fire would be hell? Their reasons for most of these scenes are absolutely some of the dumbest shit. All you have to do is think about these episodes and you just say, "what the fuck?"

5/13/2019 12:45:20 AM

I think the episode was missing an 80s style montage with Dany flying the dragon around obstacles and practicing dodging arrows before heading off to battle. Would have been perfect. Explain her new found amazing dragon skills.

I really wish the fake Jack Sparrow and Jamie got in the dingy and went and started a new life together.

5/13/2019 1:44:47 AM

DonMega stretching real deep trying to make this season's writing seem more powerful

5/13/2019 8:18:26 AM

Quote :

"It's curious that the scorpions became so much more unwieldy and drogon is all of a sudden a fighter jet (both like it should have been last ep) but oh well."

I'm with you there. Seems like a lot of people are pissed about this, but IMO it should have been this way all along. The dragons are/were way more badass than they were being let to be, and the scorpions were previously ridiculously (impossibly?) effective.

5/13/2019 9:13:19 AM

Waiting for this season to start, I was strongly considering going back and watching the series again (even though I'd already done this for the first 4 seasons to catch my wife up) because the whole show had been so impressive to me. After last night's episode I'm starting to feel like maybe watching the whole series has just been a gigantic waste of time.

Is that hyperbole? Yeah, probably, but if that was the end of Jamie and Cercei's story last night than what exactly was the point of all the time invested in their arcs? This thought can be applied to a few different stories at least.

I feel a little bit like there are two things going on with the writing that are just not working out well (in addition to just some plain lack of creativity in general):

1) They're boxed into a story they didn't write and don't know how to get out of properly. I remember hearing that the Breaking Bad writers used to do this to themselves to force creativity, and in the end felt like they had planned everything out in amazement. These writer's do not seem to be up to that challenge.

2) I think these guys are thinking, "Everyone's expecting something to happen, wouldn't it be crazy if we didn't do that?", to very, very unsatisfying ends. Sometimes people know what's going to happen and that's ok. Some of the greatest books, movies, and shows have predictable endings, but they can still tell an incredible story and be satisfying. I feel like these writers are zagging just to zag sometimes, and it's not really that creative.

Not everything's bad, the Clegane ending worked fine for me, for one of my top 3 favorites on the show I'm happy with that ending.

Also, to further the point above on the behind the scenes stuff...jesus it's so bad. With an audience that mostly figured out R+L=J they could be using that time to provide some really interesting insights, instead they're literally talking to the lowest common denominator, "Sansa is wary about Dany, so this scene really shows that". No fucking shit. If you find the stuff they talk about insightful I seriously question how you've been able to follow this show at all.

5/13/2019 9:13:20 AM