I don't care how Christmas started...I do however care that people who celebrate Christmas today don't believe in Jesus, or God. That defeats the whole purpose. I mean call my crazy, but I actually celebrate Christmas as the Celebration for Jesus's birth. I go to church on Christmas eve. I participate in Advent. I keep celebrating the 12 days of Christmas when everyone else has taken down their tress and forgotten all about it and are now thinking of Valentines day. I am angry with how commercialized Christmas has become.

Fine, Christmas used to be a Pagan holiday. I know that, I'm not stupid. But today, it's not a pagan holiday. It's the celebration of the Birth of Christ. I was raised to recognize the religious part of it before I recognize the commercialized part of it. Hell, even Santa is religious. I think people have forgotten about his beginnings.

Quote :

"a LOT of churches across the country CANCELLED their sunday morning services because it would be way too inconvenient for families who were visiting each other from out of town."

I was in church Christmas morning.

Quote :

"christmas is most certainly not about jesus' birthday. there's no way he was even born in december given the account of his birth in the bible"

Any idiot can tell you that Jesus was not born in december but in spring, maybe april. However, who cares the exact day. I mean even if Christians started to celebrate in April there would still be those types of people that say, "you can't even pick the right day! this holiday is nothing but crap" The whole point is that the Christians are celebrating that Jesus was born, yeah it's on the wrong day...but this all boils down to my belief that "it's the thought that counts"

Quote :

"well for Catholics, you go at midnight the night before"

Lutherans too. the Christmas Eve service has always been one of my favorite services all year. We normally have it around 10:30 or 11 so that when we all walk out of our church with candles and singing silent night it's Christmas.

Quote :

"I see these big expensive churches and I cant help but think about the money that could have been saved to help people who actually need it. "

ain't that the truth, I believe that anyone who tries to make a profit off of God are no different than the tax collectors in the temple

12/12/2007 9:30:19 AM

^^ My bad, I guess it's just a reading-comprehension issue. I didn't mean to make fun of a handicapable person such as yourself.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:30 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 9:30:38 AM

i have no problem with non-christians celebrating christmas, but it's stupid for them to do so

my understanding is that christmas is the christianized version of the winter festivals celebrated by a number of ancient cultures thousands of years ago...and if people want to have a pagan winter festival, by all means, have at it

but calling it christmas is a direct link to christianity and the birth of christ...if you don't believe in christ, or you're not a christian, or whatever, it's stupid to celebrate the holiday

12/12/2007 9:31:27 AM

Quote :

"Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't believe in Santa."

12/12/2007 9:31:38 AM

Quote :

"Fine, Christmas used to be a Pagan holiday. I know that, I'm not stupid. But today, it's not a pagan holiday. It's the celebration of the Birth of Christ. I was raised to recognize the religious part of it before I recognize the commercialized part of it. Hell, even Santa is religious. I think people have forgotten about his beginnings."

So it's fine to you if it evolves ... so long as it stops where you say it should.

12/12/2007 9:32:16 AM

^^^^handicapable?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:33 AM. Reason : ^]

12/12/2007 9:33:29 AM

Quote :

"Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't believe in Santa."

ftw

12/12/2007 9:34:47 AM

Quote :

"So it's fine to you if it evolves ... so long as it stops where you say it should."

The Pagan holiday was not a celebration of the birth of Christ...it was not the Mass of Christ. Therefore it was not Christmas. If people aren't going to celebrate the birth of Christ they aren't celebrating Christmas. Plain and simple. If they are going to evolve to celebrate something else, then that's fine with me, go ahead, it's your life. But don't call it Christmas, don't use the name of Christ in something that has nothing to do with Him.

12/12/2007 9:35:22 AM

some of you people getting all huffed up on this sound like the fuckers who get offended at the word Christmas being used for the holidays, ie Jews and Muslims

ie

terrorists

12/12/2007 9:35:35 AM

I would be offended if someone went around and put my name on things that has nothing to do with me...and I'm sure most people would. So what is any different with using Christ's name on something that has nothing to do with him?

12/12/2007 9:36:55 AM

=

12/12/2007 9:38:16 AM

^^Well let's see... you're not christ you sanctimonious ass.



Being christian doesn't give you the right to decide how other people celebrate. Just as the catholic church didn't own the word, neither do you.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:39 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 9:38:20 AM

Quote :

"don't use the name of Christ in something that has nothing to do with Him"

if only more christians would heed this advice

12/12/2007 9:38:55 AM

^^I'm not but there is a little saying "Don't use the Lords name in vain"


And I AM FINE IF PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE IN Christ or God. It is your life, however what I'm saying is you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't be "I'm not one of those idiot Christians who will believe anything, yet I still celebrate Christmas" That is hypocritical at it's most.

If you want to be athiest, fine! Go right ahead, I'm not going to stop you. But don't celebrate the Mass of Christ for the wrong reasons!

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:41 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 9:39:46 AM

not my Lord

12/12/2007 9:41:18 AM

being a christian, i was just thinking this same question the other day. to me, this will always be the celebration of the birth, but it has become too commercialized. and yes, i was in church the christmas morning that fell on sunday. our church did not close.

i do have another question for athiests: will you get married in a church? or will you be buried with words read from the bible? not really trying to start a fight, just wondering how atheist handle those two aspects of life.

12/12/2007 9:41:22 AM

"not my lord"

12/12/2007 9:41:33 AM

this thread is fun.

12/12/2007 9:41:36 AM

^^^^^ So. Sounds like something you should be concerned with living by rather than concerned with bitching at other people because they don't live by it. You can't dictate how people use or observe something YOU believe in.

How is it your business if people are celebrating "the wrong way?" So what. Does this somehow damage your faith? Is it that weak that you fear people's misuse of your words weakening them for you?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:43 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 9:42:27 AM

my family and i always feed the homeless after church on christmas morning (and our church has christmas morning services, regardless of what day it is)...usually, presents aren't opened till the afternoon or evening of christmas day (although when we were younger, we got to open a couple before church if we got up early enough)

12/12/2007 9:43:34 AM

my family gets drunk and opens most of their presents on Christmas eve

we like to see our extended family too... so we visit them
but this year they are visiting us

12/12/2007 9:45:25 AM

christmas to me has always been about being with family. i'm sure a lot of people who both believe and don't believe in jesus like to see their families.

12/12/2007 9:46:30 AM

Quote :

"How is it your business if people are celebrating "the wrong way?" So what. Does this somehow damage your faith? Is it that weak that you fear people's misuse of your words weakening them for you? "

My faith is no where near weak. However, I'm offended by the same people that normally will sit there and call me a fucking idiot for being a Christian and a sheep and whatever other terms they use to describe Christians, will turn around and celebrate Christmas and then tell me I'm stupid for thinking that they're hypocrites.


^Which is fine, that's what part of Christmas is to me.



I'm not fighting about this anymore...it's stupid, I'm not going to be able to make you see my opinion and you're not going to be able to make me see your opinion. The end

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:50 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 9:46:57 AM

look, what business is it of yours that people celebrate christmas even though they don't celebrate your religious beliefs?

it's not like christmas started out as a damn christian holiday anyway.

12/12/2007 9:51:28 AM

^ WRONG...christmas WAS and IS a christian holiday

there are, however, a number of winter festivals that took place around the same time that were combined with the birth of jesus, by the christians, to form christmas

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 9:54 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 9:53:50 AM

So should people of certain ancestries not celebrate Thanksgiving as well?

12/12/2007 9:55:21 AM

Quote :

"^ WRONG...christmas WAS and IS a christian holiday"

haha no it was the pagan winter solstice festival converted so it would easily attract christians. yes fine the name that we call the holiday today is (obviously) derived from christ, but it is much MORE than that for many people.

12/12/2007 9:58:36 AM

i don't celebrate thxgivin, only because what am i giving thx for, some europeans conquering america for the worst? i mean i will eat your food if you cook it, but i don't put any effort into of it. the only true celebration for me at this point in my life in my birthday, and other loved ones birthdays.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:02 AM. Reason : sdfgh]

12/12/2007 10:01:03 AM

while i agree that wikipedia is not the supreme source of information on the web, the page is well-documented and i do not see anything about it being made to "attract" christians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas#Pre-Christian_origins

i may have missed it, though (seriously)...so show me where it says that christmas was designed to attract christians to a pagan holiday...i've already agreed that there were existing pagan holidays during the time

honestly, how are we disagreeing? i KNOW there were holidays during the time pre-dating christ, and NO ONE is arguing that...you make it sound like it was a commercial event and the advertising campaign was modified to draw more customers, rather than the combination of existing celebrations with the birth of christ (which is how christmas really did start)

Quote :

"In pagan Germania (not to be confused with Germany), the equivalent holiday was the mid-winter night which was followed by 12 "wild nights", filled with eating, drinking and partying.[12] As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan celebrations had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the Germanic word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[13] a usage first recorded in 900."

this is the closest i can come to justifying your point of view...though do you REALLY eat/drink/party for 12 FULL NIGHTS after christmas? of course not...at least, no more so than you do any other time of the year, i'm betting...in fact, i'm betting more christians follow the 12 days of christmas tradition than those who follow the yule traditions

*shrug*

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:07 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:02:28 AM

for the worst? a bunch of savages with bows and arrows vs modern civilization... I'll take cars and computers and modern medicine, thanks.

12/12/2007 10:02:46 AM

Quote :

"a bunch of savages with bows and arrows vs modern civilization"

thats exactly what i am talking about, people thinking there way is better. thats exactly why terrorism exist and why they are willing to kill themselves to get you, because they only believe in their system and do not give a fuck about your system whether its better or not. in this life there is really no 'right' answer to anything, it more or less what you believe in what gives you your drive.

12/12/2007 10:05:41 AM

Quote :

"However, I'm offended by the same people that normally will sit there and call me a fucking idiot for being a Christian and a sheep and whatever other terms they use to describe Christians, will turn around and celebrate Christmas and then tell me I'm stupid for thinking that they're hypocrites. "

I thought that was cute.

In any case, I see Christmas as an American tradition and has been passed down through families, a tradition taken from the founding religion of the country (no matter how much the government and whoever denies it). I know my family isn't religious simply because of my grandparent's choices, which stemmed from my great grandfather being a bible beating reverend.

Quote :

"honestly, how are we disagreeing? i KNOW there were holidays during the time pre-dating christ, and NO ONE is arguing that...you make it sound like it was a commercial event and the advertising campaign was modified to draw more customers, rather than the combination of existing celebrations with the birth of christ (which is how christmas really did start)"

this made me think of how recruiting happy christians are...JOIN TODAY AND GIVE US MONEYZ AND YOU WON'T GO TO HELL

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:10 AM. Reason : its a campaign]

12/12/2007 10:08:01 AM

^^oh come off it, like I was serious

Quote :

"honestly, how are we disagreeing? i KNOW there were holidays during the time pre-dating christ, and NO ONE is arguing that...you make it sound like it was a commercial event and the advertising campaign was modified to draw more customers, rather than the combination of existing celebrations with the birth of christ (which is how christmas really did start)"

haha because jesus was born on december 25th.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:10 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2007 10:09:28 AM

Why does Conan O'brien celebrate Black History Month?


Why not?


[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:17 AM. Reason : For my peter]

12/12/2007 10:10:47 AM

because its the Age of the Offended these days

12/12/2007 10:11:23 AM

Quote :

"because its the Age of the Offended these days"

the hallmark of humans is emotions - this is what truly separates us from all other species of life. because of these emotions we have the ability to change, for better or for worst, and thats the beauty of being a human, kinda like the ultimate art, but being a human has many many consequences.

12/12/2007 10:13:34 AM

http://www.history.com/minisite.do?content_type=Minisite_Generic&content_type_id=1252&display_order=1&mini_id=1290

read the page on Saturnalia.

12/12/2007 10:13:35 AM

Why do you care?

12/12/2007 10:14:58 AM

Shadow of the New Praetorian
Tipping Cows in fields Elysian
Saturnalia for all you have
The seven habits of the highly infected calf

12/12/2007 10:15:37 AM

why'd you change your question, my comment makes no sense now

Quote :

"the hallmark of humans is emotions - this is what truly separates us from all other species of life. because of these emotions we have the ability to change, for better or for worst, and thats the beauty of being a human, kinda like the ultimate art, but being a human has many many consequences."

emotion separates us from all other species? I wouldn't go that far, other species show emotion. We just see it in ourselves a lot stronger and more obvious.

There aren't many qualities that truely separate us from animals; I believe a teacher in high school said that a human can be thought of as a creature that is aware of its own presence in the bigger picture

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:20 AM. Reason : if that makes sense]

12/12/2007 10:15:56 AM

Quote :

"christmas has always been a celebration of the birth of jesus."

Someone should tell that to ad execs. They're making this into a shopping holiday!

Why does anyone care who celebrates what holidays? Do you just like being exclusionist about what events certain people can celebrate? Très unchristian.

12/12/2007 10:16:51 AM

Quote :

"the hallmark of humans is emotions - this is what truly separates us from all other species of life. because of these emotions we have the ability to change, for better or for worst, and thats the beauty of being a human, kinda like the ultimate art, but being a human has many many consequences."

only people who believe stereotypes are offended by them

12/12/2007 10:17:21 AM

^^^Fixed it

12/12/2007 10:17:46 AM

^^^its human nature to not like to see other people enjoying something that you don't like. like people hating on 26 inches rims, or your shoes, etc...

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:18 AM. Reason : sdfg]

12/12/2007 10:17:55 AM

your "human nature" comment raises all sorts of red flags in my mind

I shy away from essentialist claims

12/12/2007 10:18:38 AM

ha, you better believe in the human nature, otherwise you are not ready for the real world.

12/12/2007 10:19:34 AM

Quote :

"haha because jesus was born on december 25th."

who said he was? it's a celebration of the birth, which is not necessarily the same thing as a birthday party

Quote :

"this made me think of how recruiting happy christians are...JOIN TODAY AND GIVE US MONEYZ AND YOU WON'T GO TO HELL"

honestly? i find them just as amusing and obnoxious as you do

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:20 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:19:56 AM

he's just not ready.

12/12/2007 10:20:17 AM

Quote :

"its human nature to not like to see other people enjoying something that you don't like. like people hating on 26 inches rims, or your shoes, etc..."

But Christians actually enjoy Christmas. They just want it all for themselves.

More importantly, I don't know that many atheists or agnostics who don't like Christmas. I know plenty who detest the idea of huge consumer shopping in the name of a deity, but I don't know that many who don't like getting and giving presents.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:22 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:20:45 AM

A more interesting question would be

"why do christians celebrate so many pagan holidays?"

12/12/2007 10:20:52 AM