It's not Jesus' fault that he was born on Christmas. I guess it's God's...

12/12/2007 10:21:12 AM

Quote :

"why do christians celebrate so many pagan holidays?"

name all of the pagan holidays christians celebrate...really, i'm interested

12/12/2007 10:22:14 AM

the human evolved and conquered the world in a mere 10000 years. we thrive to separate and conquer, that our nature, and thats why we evolved in my philosophical opinion, which leads to believe that wild animals run from us, but not from each other, because they sense the inherent evil human nature that we emit.

12/12/2007 10:22:19 AM

Quote :

"don't use the name of Christ in something that has nothing to do with Him"

Oh trust me, I'm not the only one who celebrates Mas!

12/12/2007 10:23:06 AM

Quote :

"who said he was? it's a celebration of the birth, which is not necessarily the same thing as a birthday party"

and they chose to have the celebration at the same time of the year as the pagan festival just on accident??
please.

12/12/2007 10:23:38 AM

Quote :

"who said he was? it's a celebration of the birth, which is not necessarily the same thing as a birthday party"

that says to me...

'Hey, what are you guys celebrating?'

'Pagan stuff.'

'OH COOL, we can celebrate something too'

...

'This is officially Christmas, get the hell OFF our day with your pagan shit'

12/12/2007 10:24:03 AM

Athiests celebrate because it makes them, for at least 1 day out of the year, not feel like a godless heathen with no reason to live.

12/12/2007 10:25:22 AM

12/12/2007 10:25:34 AM

Quote :

"But Christians actually enjoy Christmas. They just want it all for themselves."

as long as we humans can 'think' we will never all agree one thing that provides an emotional utopia. ie, we can all can agree that if you fall out of a plane you are going to die, or be really really hurt if you don't die, but we don't all believe in a religion or a trend.

12/12/2007 10:26:33 AM

You'd think by page three people would learn how to spell.

12/12/2007 10:28:07 AM

i haven't read all of this shit, but i can't be the first person to say

WHO GIVES A FLYING FUCK IN HELL?

12/12/2007 10:28:19 AM

firefox spell check ftw

12/12/2007 10:28:35 AM

^^ No, you aren't, don't worry.

12/12/2007 10:28:59 AM

^ Obviously the OP.

12/12/2007 10:29:03 AM

Can we fight over calling it "Xmas" while we are at it?

12/12/2007 10:29:33 AM

Christmas©

12/12/2007 10:31:13 AM

maybe it's to please their families?

12/12/2007 10:31:41 AM

Quote :

"and they chose to have the celebration at the same time of the year as the pagan festival just on accident?? please."

yeah...you didn't actually read the history that i posted, did you? since you're incapable of doing it on your own, i'll post it for you:

Quote :

"In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations."

Quote :

"The Romans held a festival on December 25 called Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, "the birthday of the unconquered sun." The use of the title Sol Invictus allowed several solar deities to be worshipped collectively, including Elah-Gabal, a Syrian sun god; Sol, the god of Emperor Aurelian (AD 270–274); and Mithras, a soldiers' god of Persian origin.[9] Emperor Elagabalus (218–222) introduced the festival, and it reached the height of its popularity under Aurelian, who promoted it as an empire-wide holiday.[10] December 25 was also considered to be the date of the winter solstice, which the Romans called bruma.[6] It was therefore the day the Sun proved itself to be "unconquered" despite the shortening of daylight hours. (When Julius Caesar introduced the Julian Calendar in 45 BC, December 25 was approximately the date of the solstice. In modern times, the solstice falls on December 21 or 22.) The Sol Invictus festival has a "strong claim on the responsibility" for the date of Christmas, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.[1] Several early Christian writers connected the rebirth of the sun to the birth of Jesus (sun/Son).[11] "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born," Cyprian wrote.[1]"

Quote :

"In pagan Germania (not to be confused with Germany), the equivalent holiday was the mid-winter night which was followed by 12 "wild nights", filled with eating, drinking and partying.[12] As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan celebrations had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the Germanic word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[13] a usage first recorded in 900."

does this really seem like the same holiday branded with a different name? you don't see anything specific to christianity in christmas? you REALLY think that christmas and the winter solstice festivals are the SAME THING? again, no one is saying that they're completely unrelated...the difference is that christians had the foresight of knowing that pagans wouldn't be willing to give up their "fun" holidays in favor of one of more seriousness...so they compromised

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:33 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:31:43 AM

Quote :

""I see these big expensive churches and I cant help but think about the money that could have been saved to help people who actually need it. ""

The reason you see big expensive churches, is because either rich people attend these churches or lots of people attend these churches, or probably both.

God wants you to devote your life to Him. And part of your life is money.

God wants Him to be your first priority.
When you're doing your daily routines, God wants Him to be the first thing you think about.
When you're in line at the grocery store, when you're talking to your coworkers, when you're driving in your car...
Annnnddd, when you get your paycheck.

He doesn't want you to spend your money on t.v.'s, boats, cars...
That's telling Him where your priorities are.
Sure He wants you to give to the needy and help them out,
But He first wants you to devote your life to Him
Other blessings will come
Things will be taking care of when you do this.

Read the Bible, ALL of it
It's in there

12/12/2007 10:31:49 AM

this thread just took a turn for the better...

12/12/2007 10:33:06 AM

Christmas and Easter, for starters, usurped Pagan festivals celebrated on the same date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter

I'm not trying to change anyones mind or through dirt by the way, believe what you will =).

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:37 AM. Reason : >.<]

12/12/2007 10:36:13 AM

Quote :

"Sure He wants you to give to the needy and help them out, But He first wants you to devote your life to Him build huge churches and pay your pastor's salary"

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:38 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:36:28 AM

c'mon, who would want to go to church if it met in a trailer with a leaky roof?

12/12/2007 10:37:38 AM

^^^ did you not read what i posted above?

first of all, "usurped" assumes that they stole something...i thought religion was voluntary for most adults

second, as is the goal of every religion, christianity wanted as many converts as possible, and they knew that people wouldn't want to give up their long-held traditions...so they compromised (after all, the date itself isn't as important as the meaning behind it)

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:38 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:38:19 AM

Not necessarily
If your community doesn't have monetary worth, there's plenty of things that can be done to show that the community has put God as their first priority.

12/12/2007 10:38:52 AM

^ odd, the Bible claims that everyone should tithe

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:40 AM. Reason : not just those who can afford it]

12/12/2007 10:40:47 AM

everyone SHOULD tithe...recall the parable about the woman giving out of what she had, while the others giving out of their excess

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:42 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:41:19 AM

to their own personal detriment?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:43 AM. Reason : I guess so. Yeah, I bet she starves in hopes that God's remembering to help her out.]

12/12/2007 10:42:21 AM

So by saying you were "really interested" you actually meant you were "instantly offended"

12/12/2007 10:43:23 AM

Christmas is one of many holidays that Christians celebrate throughout the year.
Christmas is no more important than any of the other ones,
Except for Easter of course (where everything in the Old Testement pointing towards the comming of the Messiah actually came true), and is what defines Christians

12/12/2007 10:43:30 AM

Yea, but when a poor community tithe's, they're going to have a poor church (monetarily speaking)

12/12/2007 10:44:13 AM

Jesus was not born on Christmas numbnuts. There is not a coincidence that Christmas is right after the Winter Solstice (due to adjustments of the calendar of the century it probably was on the Solstice at some point.) Also, the calendar as we know it has been changed many times. August was not even the name of a month back when Jesus was born. Does anyone actually think that public records documented the birthdate of a commoners baby. This is even forgetting that the jewish calendar is completely different then our modern day calendar which is based on the roman one. We do not even know what year Jesus was even born much less date.

The date 12/25 was picked just to help convert pagans who already celebrated the winter solstice with a huge celebration worshiping the sun god/mother nature/etc. So recycling this date made it easy for christian leaders to be like hey we are celebrating Jesus not the Sun god now.

Whether you believe or not J-dawg was the son of god or not is up to your own religious notions. I do think, however, most of the early gospels centered around his birth were fabricated by the early church to give linearity and add mysticism to the figurehead of the church.

Quote :

"The New Testament does not give a specific date"

WOW holy shit batman you mean the bible does not even list jesus's birthdate WTF!?!?

I guess this is kind of like how the crazy Evangelicals claim god doesn't want up to smoke pot, drink, look at porn, have pre-marital sex, or gamble. Yet none of these vices are specifically mentioned in the bible (Adultry is but that is a married person having an affair). Must be one of those reading between the lines kinda things.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:53 AM. Reason : aa]

12/12/2007 10:44:54 AM

With righteousness he will judge the needy; with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

bwahahaha

12/12/2007 10:46:03 AM

^^ no shit...your first two paragraphs have been said before...several times

Quote :

"So by saying you were "really interested" you actually meant you were "instantly offended""

not at all...i just think that you're not reading into what you're posting...yes, pagan and christian holidays share dates, but that was largely for the purpose of conversion efforts

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:49 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:49:04 AM

So it's cool if your religion just tried to convert people by putting their holiday on top of another.

I see.

12/12/2007 10:51:11 AM

^ it's really sad that despite the fact that you're probably smart, you can't read very well

you guys act like people have no choice in the matter

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:52 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:51:59 AM

I just read what you posted, and said the same thing. I can read just fine.

... Where did I say that people have no choice in the matter?

It's still a cunty thing to do, slapping your holiday on top of a rival religion's holiday. That's probably one of the reasons why most Christians don't like to discuss the history of this holiday.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 10:52:53 AM

Quote :

"does this really seem like the same holiday branded with a different name? you don't see anything specific to christianity in christmas? you REALLY think that christmas and the winter solstice festivals are the SAME THING?"

ALL OF THOSE THINGS YOU BOLDED PRETTY MUCH SHOW THAT CHRISTMAS WAS TAILORED TO ATTRACT PAGANS SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO CHANGE THEIR TRADITIONS.

and then we added the whole "oh jesus was born too" part of it.

12/12/2007 10:53:40 AM

haha "cunty"

12/12/2007 10:54:41 AM

Also no coincidence is the fact that Xmas is 9 months (human avg gestation) period after the vernal Equinox which was a pagan and Roman festival for fertility.

I think Easter has more credibility then Xmas has a documented day of religious significance.

12/12/2007 10:56:31 AM

Quote :

"Where did I say that people have no choice in the matter?"

where you imply that it makes one bit of difference WHEN the holiday takes place

Quote :

"It's still a cunty thing to do, slapping your holiday on top of a rival religion's holiday."

this is where you're being stupid...you assume that because one holiday was there first, that day should be forever reserved for that holiday and that NO differing religion should be allowed to do anything on that day...what difference does it make WHEN the holiday is? if you CHOOSE to believe in god/christ instead of the sun god, who's being harmed?

really, you think it's dumb that people can't celebrate both? or that it's simply not cool that people celebrate two different things on the same day?

so what if christians were smart enough to realize that pagans would be reluctant to give up their rituals and holidays? no one made the pagans switch to christianity...in fact, all it did was allow them to believe in something different without necessarily becoming completely removed from their community

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 11:02 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 11:01:24 AM

Nobody's telling you that you can't celebrate on that day. They're saying you can't say, "Fuck, you. It's mine. Get your own day."

12/12/2007 11:03:59 AM

^ and who's saying that? the initial argument was about calling the day by one religion's name while not practicing that religion...i'm not offended by it, but i sure think it's dumb for people to base their actions on religious traditions without actually being a part of (or actively criticizing) that same religion

oh, and fuchsia IS saying that it was wrong of christians to celebrate on the same day...unless i'm misunderstanding her, in which case i'd like clarification..."cunty" seemed pretty self-explanatory

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 11:06 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 11:05:11 AM

you're defeating your own argument by saying "what difference does it make WHEN the holiday is?"

Because if it really didn't matter, why put it on top of a huge Pagan holiday? Seriously, why infringe SPECIFICALLY on their big festival day when you have about 300 other days to choose from?

Quote :

"really, you think it's dumb that people can't celebrate both? or that it's simply not cool that people celebrate two different things on the same day?"

Uh, where did I say that? I just said that putting one on top of the other was done for a very specific reason, which you seem to approve of.

Quote :

"so what if christians were smart enough to realize that pagans would be reluctant to give up their rituals and holidays? no one made the pagans switch to christianity...in fact, all it did was allow them to believe in something different without necessarily becoming completely removed from their community"

So you relish in the fact that people are attached to these traditions, but automatically reject them as "pagan" despite that that's exactly what they are?

Quote :

"but i sure think it's dumb for people to base their actions on religious traditions without actually being a part of (or actively criticizing) that same religion"

You don't know a goddamn thing about what I think/know/believe about this holiday. Please stop pretending that you do.

Quote :

"oh, and fuchsia IS saying that it was wrong of christians to celebrate on the same day...unless i'm misunderstanding her, in which case i'd like clarification..."cunty" seemed pretty self-explanatory"

I said it was cunty, not WRONG. Big difference. If you're down with the fact that your religion did this (plus all kinds of really cruel and fucked-up things) in the name of Jesus Christ, cool beans.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 11:09 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 11:05:25 AM

And this, quagmire, is why you don't fly off the panhandle with your assertions

12/12/2007 11:06:48 AM

Quote :

"the initial argument was about calling the day by one religion's name while not practicing that religion"

There's a religion called Christmas?

12/12/2007 11:07:23 AM

^^^ not at all...rather, i think it's a good idea to allow people to celebrate different traditions/religions without intentionally creating division within a community

who cares what you think about this holiday? while i'm sure you're included in "people", you aren't so special that i called you by name with that statement

Quote :

"all kinds of other really cruel and fucked-up things in the name of Jesus Christ, cool beans."

and I'M the one flying off the handle with assertions? did i ONCE say anything about condoning "fucked-up things" in the name of god or jesus christ? hardly

^ no...the christian religion's name for the holiday is "christmas"...i don't see the point in celebrating some other version of it by using the same name...christmas has to do with jesus christ specifically...if you don't believe in him or celebrate his birth, then you're not celebrating "christmas"...you're celebrating "give everyone presents in the name of commercialism" day

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 11:12 AM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 11:07:34 AM

These days, Christmas is about consumerism, not Christianity.

12/12/2007 11:08:34 AM

Happy HOLIDAYS

12/12/2007 11:10:32 AM

this thread makes me wanna be jewish just to piss people off

12/12/2007 11:11:33 AM