^The tasks are conceptually the same (indirect manipulation of objects at a point of focus). The execution is different (textual keywords and key chording vs visual keywords and mouse chording). Like I said, this is irrelevant to this thread and I shouldn't have gone down the tangent.

If you guys are interested in the debate, lets start a new thread.

3/16/2012 7:40:30 PM

Release Preview:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/iso
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-8/download

5/31/2012 4:15:26 PM

Pretty cool that it supports in-place upgrade from the consumer preview. Pretty sure that's a first, at least from Microsoft

5/31/2012 5:01:18 PM

I wish I didn't need to install a Windows 8 Preview just to use any IE10 Preview after the first two

5/31/2012 10:43:00 PM

Release Preview....5 stars. No issues thus far. Runs much more smoothly than the Consumer Preview. The music app accepts my Zune Pass, so I'm now in heaven. This is definitely my daily driver now.

6/1/2012 10:59:00 AM

metro is still absolutely horrible to use with a mouse and keyboard. the touch additons to explorer are still gross. opening a pdf from the desktop into a fullscreen metro app is so stupid. etc.. etc..

the whole thing is just as much of a mess as it was before. its gonna fail so goddamn hard if they send it to rtm

[Edited on June 1, 2012 at 1:18 PM. Reason : '']

6/1/2012 1:17:49 PM

but they'll market it with dubstep and all will be well

6/2/2012 9:59:39 AM

Pro:


Con:


Also, it's a little jarring that the metro start screen appears on my main/middle (of 3) monitors while the desktop appears on my wing monitors.

6/2/2012 4:06:54 PM

before when I installed linux mint after windows 8, i was able to boot into either from the first windows login

now that i've updated windows 8 to release preview it took away the linux option and only has the new windows 8 and my everyday windows 7 as option

anybody know what I can do to add linux mint to the options?

6/2/2012 5:23:59 PM

You need to repair grub like you repair the MBR with a windows repair disc. I don't know how to do that, however.

6/2/2012 6:15:39 PM

^^ Strange. I updated from the Consumer Preview to the Release Preview on my seldom used netbook and Kubuntu is still in the bootloader. I haven't tried booting into it admittedly (yet!).

^^^ I personally find it funny that just as they're killing the task manager they've added the multi-monitor support that people have been begging for at least the past 10-12 years! Support that 3rd party programs have offered for at least 12 years.

If MS would give back the start menu, Windows 8 would really be a great OS and an excellent upgrade over Windows 7.

6/2/2012 7:07:18 PM

Unfortunately, the very version of Visual Studio needed to build Metro apps, and to take advantage of AMP and C++11, will not allow the creation of desktop applications in the free version, and the related SDK will include no compilers: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/05/no-cost-desktop-software-development-is-dead-on-windows-8/

The free Microsoft dev tools were great while they lasted; now I guess there will be more Windows development with GCC.

6/3/2012 8:25:54 AM

The 2010 Express products aren't being pulled though. You can continue to use them to develop desktop apps against Win8. So it's not like the rug is being pulled out from under you there.

6/3/2012 11:43:50 PM

Quote :

"and to take advantage of AMP and C++11"

can't do that in Visual Studio 2010

6/4/2012 1:11:11 AM

Somebody on reddit said the compiler would still be the same, you just couldn't build those kinds of applications from the IDE. The rumor was you'd be able to use the IDE and then make MSBuild files or whatever to build the code manually. Is that true?

6/4/2012 10:36:54 AM

wow, it only took them...6 years?...to duplicate the awesome functionality of ultramon

nice.

6/4/2012 10:58:25 AM

nm

[Edited on June 4, 2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason : ]

6/4/2012 11:09:39 AM

Quote :

"Somebody on reddit said the compiler would still be the same, you just couldn't build those kinds of applications from the IDE. The rumor was you'd be able to use the IDE and then make MSBuild files or whatever to build the code manually. Is that true?"

MSBuild comes with the .NET framework. You dont have to use VS at all and they are functionally independent. So if you install the .NET 4.5 framework (or just install Win8), you've got MSBuild.

Yes, there are tools in VS that make working on top of the framework more productive, but they don't block you from using it in any way. If you install VS, the first thing it does is to install the .NET framework.

6/4/2012 2:07:44 PM

Also it looks like this could help: http://msbuildshellex.codeplex.com/

Additionally, it sounds like MSBuild allows for building native-code projects, not just .NET: http://my.safaribooksonline.com/book/software-engineering-and-development/deployment/9780735659827/msbuild-in-visual-cplusplus-2010-part-2/native_and_managed_multi-targeting

6/4/2012 2:31:38 PM

lol, coming from the consumer preview, the release preview told me my CPU wasn't supported (i5-2500K).

So 2-seconds of bing said "update your bios". Ok, no problem. But then I couldn't even launch the CP any more because of INVALID_BOOT_DEVICE.

Start over with Windows 7, then upgraded to the release preview. All is well.

6/6/2012 11:15:54 AM

MS saying VS 2012 Express will support desktop app development now

6/9/2012 9:53:15 AM

6/11/2012 10:56:00 AM

Maybe AOL was just ahead of their time......

6/11/2012 11:19:01 AM

Quote :

"Windows 8 lets you build Metro style apps using a variety of programming languages and tools. You can program your apps using C#, C++, or Visual Basic, while using XAML to declaratively describe the user interface. Or you can build apps using web technologies like HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Developers looking for the best possible performance on Windows 8 can use Microsoft DirectX 11.1 with C++."

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/hh852650#Build_apps_using_what_you_know

Ernie, web developer software developer!

7/23/2012 8:04:27 PM

old news, champ

7/23/2012 9:28:43 PM

anybody else try the OneNote MX Preview? I think it's a great note taking app. Not as fast / simple as Quick Note, but much more versatile. My only gripe is that you can't just move pages to another notebook. Otherwise, I'm really getting used to that option wheel.

7/24/2012 2:56:44 PM

i still cant believe microsoft is actually gonna release this.

7/25/2012 3:37:32 PM

Looks pretty innovative to me. I will be upgrading.

7/25/2012 5:06:15 PM

http://kotaku.com/5929067/gabe-newell-wants-to-support-linux-because-windows-8-is-a-catastrophe

7/25/2012 11:21:11 PM

Possibly cause for concern, but most likely he's just reacting to the possibility of the Windows store cutting into Steam's near monopoly on the digital game sales market.

7/26/2012 10:03:52 AM

lol not a chance. gfwl is awful and games will still be cheaper on steam. the problem is that touch based uis dont belong on x86 hardware.

7/26/2012 10:08:07 AM

I can't read that at work, and I don't know his exact speech, but I found this one http://www.zdnet.com/valve-windows-8-is-a-catastrophe-for-pcs-7000001634/

Quote :

"Newell's opinion should be considered through a gaming lens, as Valve is a popular portal that allows customers to download games and link their accounts to the cloud through Steam. The concern is that once Windows 8 is established, the revenue stream changes, and the rival in-built Windows store may make Microsoft's alternative more appealing to consumers and developers, especially when you consider features such as Xbox LIVE integration. However, it is not only the restrictive and closed nature of the Windows Store which is an issue. Valve's success was attributed to the PC's "open" nature; Newell said that Valve "would not exist" without the open and flexible platform. He also said that there has always been a "strong temptation" to close a platform, due to the profits that can be gained from the PC market. Newell noted that developers "look at what they can accomplish when they limit the competitors' access to the platform, and they say 'That’s really exciting'." It may not be in the interests of consumers or competition, but it may certainly bring up the profit margins for dominant players in the PC industry."

Doesn't seem like he's concerned about touch specifically.

I don't think, and haven't seen anything to suggest, that Microsoft would make Windows 8 a closed system akin to OSX. So to me it seems like Valve is more concerned about the windows game store having a prominent button on the metro home screen.

7/26/2012 10:21:20 AM

no what hes concerned about is how bad metro is on a desktop or laptop. its fucking awful. awful to the point that hes worried people arent gonna buy it and oems arent gonna make traditional desktop/laptop hardware for it. hardware that is critical to steam and pc gaming.

obviously we'll still have the enthusiast market of people who built their own machines, but the're all gonna put win7 on there.

hes worried that given the choice between a laptop/desktop with a horrific win8 experience or a tablet, the average user will pick a tablet. (an arm one)

[Edited on July 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM. Reason : a]

7/26/2012 10:38:09 AM

so...windows 7 is like the 95 or XP of its day...we'll skip windows 8 (me or vista) and whatever's next won't suck

7/26/2012 10:41:12 AM

Is that what he said he's concerned about? Or is that what you're assuming he's concerned about because that's what you think about Windows 8?

You have a link to the whole speech from a non-gaming website (so I can read it at work)?

7/26/2012 10:41:36 AM

they've had a windows game store for years now and it hasnt done anything. if windows 8 was win 7.5 + a wpf store (no metro) i dont think anyone would hate it

[Edited on July 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM. Reason : a]

7/26/2012 10:54:00 AM

The windows game store is not prominently featured the windows homescreen. I've never even been to the windows game store. If it was as prominently featured and easily accessible as the iOS app store (which it likely will be in Win 8) I'd probably go there all the time even if I still bought most of my games through Steam.

Newell and Valve are concerned about this store cutting into their business. What they think about Metro is almost irrelevant.

Another link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18996377

Quote :

"However, he added, the openness that helped Valve as well as firms such as Google and Zynga could disappear with Windows 8. "There's a strong temptation to close the platform," he said, "because they look at what they can accomplish when they limit the competitors' access to the platform, and they say, 'That's really exciting.'" "

Again I've seen nothing that windows 8 will be closed, just that there might be (in Gabe's opinion) "a strong temptation" to close it. Steam still works on Win 8. He probably just sees the new windows game store in such a prominent position as an unfair advantage and is concerned about losing more casual players and it being harder to attract new players to Steam.

7/26/2012 11:15:13 AM

http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2012/07/changing-my-mind-on-microsoft.html?m=1

7/26/2012 11:30:01 AM

^meh. as a person who uses it on a hybrid device (tablet / netbook), it works quite well.

7/26/2012 3:06:32 PM

^^wow that guy is retarded.

He doesn't understand enterprise or IT at all. I mean his entire post was focused on the dev stack, and nearly every single point he made is either flat out wrong, or was true a decade ago but isn't even in the ballpark of what is happening today.

I just hope this guy doesn't manage other people's money. His primary stance seems to be "I use Linux which makes me a technically savvy person". The only point I agree with him on is that I think Win8 is going to have real adoption problems in enterprise. But not at all for the reasons he has, actually because enterprise is just now phasing in Win7, and it'll be another 2-3 years to complete the XP/Vista -> Win7 move across the industry.

What's so dumb coming from a trader is that this failure of Win8 being adopted in enterprise is because a different Microsoft product IS. Which still means big growth and big profits.

7/27/2012 5:27:22 AM

Jesus. I have ADHD and that blogpost jumped too much for even me!

7/27/2012 9:34:02 AM

I loved the video of the old guy. It was upvoted on hacker news so it had a 50/50 shot of being intellectual masturbation.

7/27/2012 10:54:32 AM

^and the video is already irrelevant, there's a 10 second intro when you install Win8 that literally says "hey move your mouse to the corners of the screen to do stuff"

Omg billion dollar crisis overted

7/27/2012 1:39:46 PM

That video is retarded, if you use ANY system without instructions then you'll be at a loss unless you are one of the few percent of people that enjoy trying and experimenting new things. Yes, it's not immediately obvious how to get back, but once you know how, it's not hard or obtuse.

I thought for sure that he was going to showcase other methods of complication, but no, the video lacks any creativity and was a waste of my time ... of which I wasted more by replying, great.

7/27/2012 2:13:26 PM

^^

So you think when someone is at the store or visiting their friends house that's going to be a positive experience?

^

My step mom who can't use a TV remote picked up an ipad and managed to figure out how to play solitaire and find the website for a local newspaper. People usually just bang around like monkeys until they establish patterns that work. Good UIs don't have terminal states or modes and they use proper affordances to make what to do next obvious.

7/28/2012 2:23:21 PM

^Yes, because I 100% guarantee at every electronics store in the world, those people are going to be trained like clockwork to explain the "move the mouse to the corner of the screen".

And at a friend's house, you have a FRIEND to introduce you to the interaction patterns.

C'mon now, lets use a little bit of common sense here.

7/28/2012 9:56:25 PM

Re: That video. I guess someone else said it best.

Quote :

"A UI designed for Tablets is not good for a desktop. Removing 30 years worth of research from your UI to make it work better for a 16 year old girl on a mobile phone seems like a rather unwise thing."

I don't know why you'd want metro on a desktop PC. Windows 8 probably should have been tablet only, leave the other updates included with Win 8 for a Win 7 SP.

7/28/2012 11:38:47 PM

Not Metro anymore, "Windows 8-style UI"

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/08/microsoft-metro-out-windows-8-style-ui-in-amid-rumors-of-a-trademark-dispute/

8/2/2012 7:03:06 PM

8/2/2012 7:45:52 PM

^just make yourself look like an idiot by posting that



The problem was fixed a while ago by adding a 5 second animation to first login.

8/3/2012 1:13:13 AM