Quote :

"I understand WHY they celebrate Christmas (family, gift giving, etc), but I wonder why they seem to pretty much only celebrate Christian major holidays. You would think that Athiests would be just as likely to celebrate Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, or Ramadan, but it seems like they all celebrate Christmas."

because were in the US, so most of us celebrate the US's most prominent holidays.

12/12/2007 12:11:45 PM

Quote :

"what other christian holidays do atheists celebrate?"

St Patrick's day
Valentine's day
Sometimes Easter

12/12/2007 12:13:15 PM

they like beer, sex, and painted eggs?

12/12/2007 12:14:18 PM

No, but they pretend to to fit in.

12/12/2007 12:15:42 PM

Ummm... this don't make sense. You say all this:

Quote :

"why? is it for the presents? to me that makes as much sense as osama bin laden celebrating "Independence day" for the fireworks. christmas has always been a celebration of the birth of jesus. if you dont like but still want to celebrate, no fear, you still have thanksgiving and new years."

And then end with:

Quote :

"happy holidays"

MERRY CHRISTMAS IS MORE APPROPRIATE!!!

12/12/2007 12:18:54 PM

if you guys think that all were doing to fit in is celebrate Christmas you're way off. for starters,
in our natural state atheists:
-silicon based
-can live on sand and air alone
-reproduce by splitting once we've reached a certain size, or by contact osmosis
-have sight based on movement
-can not use contractions (i would explain how we do it most of the time, but it is rather complicated, it applies especially when we are talking about it)

12/12/2007 12:22:01 PM

^might want to edit out the "you're" and "we've" then

12/12/2007 12:29:48 PM

what I said implied that there were ways around it. but I'll give you a gold star for finding the contractions in that post since you seem so proud of yourself.

12/12/2007 12:33:48 PM

Quote :

"You spent half this thread trying to claim it's a completely separate issue from the pagan holiday, then you moved on to say "well if it's on the same day, SO WHAT?!""

your recap of my argument is perfectly on-target...christmas is indeed a completely separate issue from the pagan holiday (unless i'm unaware of a pagan holiday on december 25 that celebrates the birth of jesus christ)...and yes, i agree that if it's on the same day, it does not count as "usurping" any other religion...what's the discrepancy there?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 12:42:56 PM

Why do you keep saying that I used words that other posters did? I never said it was a usurpment of any other religion's day. I just said it was shitty of them to do. And it was.

They could've gone with any other time of the year, right? Because Christianity would still be just as popular without all those pagan traditions... right? So why'd they bother putting it on that day? Seems odd.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 12:54 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 12:48:35 PM

"shitty" is completely subjective and your argument reverts back to your opinion...granted, i think the celebration of a holiday that a person does not actually believe in is downright stupid (my opinion)...but when it comes to the roots of christmas as a christian holiday, i'm using much more factual evidence then "it's cunty of them to have a holiday on the same day" or some other stupid thing you've said

and i'm glad you removed that second paragraph...that was a dumb thing to say, as well...i'd like to see where i contradict myself

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 12:53 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 12:52:54 PM

Quote :

"granted, i think the celebration of a holiday that a person does not actually believe in is downright stupid (my opinion)"

I didn't say anything about that topic.

Quote :

"...but when it comes to the roots of christmas as a christian holiday, i'm using much more factual evidence then "it's cunty of them to have a holiday on the same day" or some other stupid thing you've said"

Oh please. My factual evidence is that PUTTING A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY ON TOP OF A PAGAN ONE IN ORDER TO CONVERT PEOPLE IS, IN FACT, A SHITTY THING TO DO. I know you can't see that because you see any person's conversion to your religion as a great thing. I understand that. That doesn't mean there aren't religions out there that might get pissed off if your religion suddenly said "HEY! THIS ONE-DAY CHRISTMAS THING IS SILLY! Let's make Christmas into 6-day celebration spread over the last four days of the month of Ashwin and the first two days of the new month of Kartika! THAT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER! That way, people would pay less attention to Diwali as a festival/holiday and celebrate Christmas and convert to Christianity instead!"

If you can't see how randomly assigning one of your religion's holidays on top of another religion's holidays ON PURPOSE (for the purpose of conversion, no less), infringes on the other holiday in a less than well-meaning way, I can't help you.

Thanks for continuing to call me dumb for having an opinion in this conversation, though. I've said nothing about your intelligence on these topics. It's good to know Christians still have the higher ground in these discussions.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:02 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 12:59:55 PM

shows how strong those people's faith was, if that's all it took to convert them

lets hate on those people

12/12/2007 1:02:13 PM

I'm not saying everyone was converted that day, and nor did I say that the placement of the holiday on the other forced anyone into any conversion.

Doesn't mean that putting the holiday there, knowing full well that the other one was widely-celebrated (and also not changing a lot of the same festival/holiday traditions of that other festival), wasn't an underhanded thing to do.

12/12/2007 1:04:24 PM

Quote :

"I didn't say anything about that topic."

i didn't you say you did...i'm pointing out that i've offered my opinion in this thread as well (and that i'm aware of the difference)

Quote :

"Oh please. My factual evidence is that PUTTING A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY ON TOP OF A PAGAN ONE IN ORDER TO CONVERT PEOPLE IS, IN FACT, A SHITTY THING TO DO."

it's sad that you think that is a genuine fact instead of an opinion...poor, dumb fuchsia

Quote :

"I know you can't see that because you see any person's conversion to your religion as a great thing. I understand that."

i said this? when?

Quote :

"That doesn't mean there aren't religions out there that might get pissed off if your religion suddenly said "HEY! THIS ONE-DAY CHRISTMAS THING IS SILLY! Let's make Christmas into 6-day celebration spread over the last four days of the month of Ashwin and the first two days of the new month of Kartika! THAT WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER! That way, people would pay less attention to Diwali as a festival/holiday and celebrate Christmas and convert to Christianity instead!""

why would they get pissed off? no one makes them celebrate it...which is my point, but of course you're missing it completely

Quote :

"If you can't see how randomly assigning one of your religion's holidays on top of another religion's holidays ON PURPOSE (for the purpose of conversion, no less), infringes on the other holiday in a less than well-meaning way, I can't help you."

you're right, you can't help me because you've yet to say anything of value...people are still individuals who are capable of making their own choices...if they come to believe in one thing over another, why do you care?

Quote :

"Thanks for continuing to call me dumb for having an opinion in this conversation, though. I've said nothing about your intelligence on these topics. It's good to know Christians still have the higher ground in these discussions."

i call it like i see it...you're incapable (or unwilling) to realize that you're way off base and you're substituting opinion for fact...what would you call yourself? enlightened?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:04:34 PM

12/12/2007 1:05:34 PM

^ his laugh at the end is the best part

12/12/2007 1:06:42 PM

Athiests celebrate because it makes them, for at least 1 day out of the year, not feel like a godless heathen with no reason to live.

12/12/2007 1:08:14 PM

Quote :

"poor, dumb fuchsia"

Damn, you honestly can't quit that, can you?

Quote :

"you're right, you can't help me because you've yet to say anything of value...people are still individuals who are capable of making their own choices...if they come to believe in one thing over another, why do you care?"

I don't honestly care what anyone believes about anything, or what holidays they celebrate. It's still misguided of you to think that Christmas was placed on that day for no other reason than "hey, this is a good day!"

Quote :

"i call it like i see it...you're incapable (or unwilling) to realize that you're way off base and you're substituting opinion for fact...what would you call yourself? enlightened?"

I never fucking said this was anything but my own opinion. That's your mistake. Your "factual evidence" is similarly just opinion, which you also can't see. But obviously nobody else could ever possibly have a difference of opinion over Christians putting their holiday on the same day as a pagan festival. Never ever. Definitely not.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:10 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:08:33 PM

^^ and they like presents...who doesn't like presents?

and eggnog and candy and ornaments and (in a lot of cases) family time...who wouldn't like it?

Quote :

"Damn, you honestly can't quit that, can you?"

no, i can't...and it amuses me that you let it get to you so badly

Quote :

"I don't honestly care what anyone believes about anything, or what holidays they celebrate. It's still misguided of you to think that Christmas was placed on that day for no other reason than "hey, this is a good day!""

i'm pretty sure i specifically pointed out that it aided the conversion effort...was that their sole reason? i don't think so, but i'm quite sure it played a part...check out some of those sources from wikipedia...it'll help you understand what you're talking about

Quote :

"I never fucking said this was anything but my own opinion. That's your mistake. Your "factual evidence" is similarly just opinion, which you also can't see."

yes, you did:

Quote :

"My factual evidence is that PUTTING A CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY ON TOP OF A PAGAN ONE IN ORDER TO CONVERT PEOPLE IS, IN FACT, A SHITTY THING TO DO."

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:14 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:09:15 PM

Yes, but you said that conversion was your "factual evidence" for why it wasn't a bad thing.

So you're down with Christianity putting their holiday there because "hey, why not? let's convert some people!"

Uh, I can't help that you took my "factual evidence" joke seriously. I was making fun of your "factual evidence," which is similarly just opinion.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:15 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:13:05 PM

if people's faith was so weak that they were swayed by a different holiday on the same day? why not?

whose job is it to watch out for the weak-minded and weak-faithed?

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:15 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:15:02 PM

Similarly, obviously everyone who considers themselves a Christian is strong-minded and strong-willed, right?

12/12/2007 1:16:29 PM

why do you assume that? did i say it?

12/12/2007 1:17:40 PM

No. But why assume any PERSON should automatically be strong-willed or weak-willed for believing or not believing in one religion over another?

If they converted, whatever. I mean, Christianity is great for explaining how to live your life and how to always be happy with any situation given to you. Fine, powerful messages and all that, etc.

But if it was going to win out as the most popular religion, then there's no reason why they needed to put their holiday on top of the other one.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:21 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:19:31 PM

i'm still not understanding where you're coming from...i never said that one religion over another makes a person weak or strong...i'm saying that if all it took was a new holiday to convert people, then their faith in their previous religion must not have been that strong

is this really confusing you? REALLY?

12/12/2007 1:20:51 PM

No, I'm not confused. Why does changing your religion necessitate you being weak-willed?

I mean, if you honestly changed your mind, who gives a shit?

Apparently you do, if you're calling all pagans who converted to Christianity weak for shifting into Christianity when it became the more popular of the two through the holiday switch. I mean, if they were practiced the same, there's not much of a reason to not change.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:25 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:23:03 PM

maybe you're not a religious person, so it's unfair for me to assume you understand, but...

...i don't think faith is a simple matter of changing your mind, i really don't...if that's not how you feel, fine, but i think any truly religious person (regardless of the religion) can tell you that true faith is unshakable and is not subject to simple whims

12/12/2007 1:24:59 PM

^can i hear an amen?

12/12/2007 1:25:44 PM

AMEN, BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

12/12/2007 1:26:14 PM

I don't celebrate Christmas, but out of respect to my family, I partake in their stupid traditions.

12/12/2007 1:26:14 PM

i have a friend who does that...both parents are ministers, the poor kid...he only does it because it makes them feel better

12/12/2007 1:27:29 PM

Quote :

"i don't think faith is a simple matter of changing your mind, i really don't...if that's not how you feel, fine, but i think any truly religious person (regardless of the religion) can tell you that true faith is unshakable and is not subject to simple whims"

I know faith isn't a matter of changing your mind. But you can't honestly tell me that all the people out there right now who consider themselves Christians truly feel that sense of faith. It's similar: if you're going to church and doing the same things that Christians do, but you were a pagan... well, I don't know that it feels very different.

I honestly don't think you can will yourself into believing in God or religion if you don't, either. But most biblethumpers see it another way.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:28 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:27:29 PM

Quote :

"I know faith isn't a matter of changing your mind. But you can't honestly tell me that all the people out there right now who consider themselves Christians truly feel that sense of faith. It's similar: if you're going to church and doing the same things that Christians do, but you were a pagan... well, I don't know that it feels very different. I honestly don't think you can will anyone into believing in God or religion if they don't, either. But most biblethumpers see it another way."

i thought we were talking about thousands of years ago and your silly claim that putting a holiday during the same time of another was a horrible, "shitty," and "cunty" thing to do? although, you can't say WHY

i know you can't "will" anyone into believing anything...but why blame the religion simply because they're having a different party the same time as yours? the people who will come will come...what they believe is between them and god...just don't lie to yourself about your reasons for being there

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:30 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:29:09 PM

i celebrate the holiday as a time to be with my family, take a little time off from work and to give to the ones i love. i'd say these days christmas is far more of a secular holiday than anything else for most people.

12/12/2007 1:29:59 PM

Quote :

"i thought we were talking about thousands of years ago and your silly claim that putting a holiday during the same time of another was a horrible, "shitty," and "cunty" thing to do? although, you can't say WHY"

We are. And I'm saying that the conversion may have nothing to do with faith, it may just have to do with Christians wanting to increase their numbers, while converted pagans just celebrated the same way they always had.

You're the one making this into a theological problem, wherein these pagans would need the faith of a true Christian to convert.

Quote :

"i know you can't "will" anyone into believing anything...but why blame the religion simply because they're having a different party the same time as yours? the people who will come will come...what they believe is between them and god...just don't lie to yourself about your reasons for being there"

I'm not blaming the religion for anything, aside from trying to convert everyone and their mom to their religion. Which, if you've ever had forced on you firsthand, is a very unpleasant experience.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:33 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:31:56 PM

Quote :

"We are. And I'm saying that the conversion may have nothing to do with faith, it may just have to do with Christians wanting to increase their numbers"

you are so damn dense it hurts ME...christians can want until they're blue in the face, but people make the choice

12/12/2007 1:33:33 PM

I never said otherwise.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:34 PM. Reason : So why are you calling me dense?]

12/12/2007 1:34:00 PM

so you're saying a conversion can happen just because christians want to increase their numbers? you do realize you can't force a conversion, right?

12/12/2007 1:34:36 PM

tell that to africa

12/12/2007 1:35:15 PM

^^No, I didn't say that. I just said that Christians putting the holiday there to in an attempt to increase their numbers (and decrease the numbers of pagans) is crappy of them.

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:36 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:35:49 PM

^^ oh, see, i'm talking about a relationship with god...not "i said i'm a christian so that means i am!"

which goes back to the initial point of why non-christians celebrate a christian holiday (named christmas)

Quote :

"No, I didn't say that. I just said that Christians putting the holiday there to in an attempt to increase their numbers (and decrease the numbers of pagans) is crappy of them."

you've yet to answer why it's crappy of them...it doesn't hurt anyone whatsoever

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:37 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:36:13 PM

^^^^oh you can, trust me.

course, the way I see it, the type of Christians who do that might be burning. It goes against the whole point of Christ's coming


[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:37 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:36:53 PM

Those who believe that they believe in God,
but without passion in their hearts,
without anguish in mind,
without uncertainty,
without doubt,
without an element of despair even in their consolation,
believe only in the God idea, not God Himself.

12/12/2007 1:37:09 PM

^ truth

12/12/2007 1:37:37 PM

Quote :

"you've yet to answer why it's crappy of them"

because of the sheer number of people who've tried so hard to convert me over the years

it doesn't "hurt" me, but it gets really fucking annoying after a while

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:38 PM. Reason : my opinion, that's why]

12/12/2007 1:38:00 PM

Quote :

" which goes back to the initial point of why non-christians celebrate a christian holiday (named christmas)"

why do non-pagans recognize a day name SATURday?

because the name has no real bearing on what the day has become.

12/12/2007 1:38:45 PM

i think she means it's cheap of them to choose Saturnalia as the time of year to celebrate Christ's coming







personally, Christ's coming was like the return of the Golden Age (which occured during Saturn's reign of Italy )

12/12/2007 1:39:04 PM

^ basically, yeah

12/12/2007 1:39:30 PM

Quote :

"because of the sheer number of people who've tried so hard to convert me over the years it doesn't "hurt" me, but it gets really fucking annoying after a while"

I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO...jeez, keep it confined to a specific time, would you? so what if you don't like what christianity has become? today's christianity has absolutely NO bearing on the reasons for the establishing of christmas or who chose to celebrate it

i'd love to see you map out that single decision to every christian you don't like thousands of years later

[Edited on December 12, 2007 at 1:42 PM. Reason : .]

12/12/2007 1:41:04 PM